The Space Between Atoms -- Teaching Middle School

[sophiecentaur]

Just wondering, how do you know this is "what the kids think"? I'm not sure I ever thought that.

We listen to them and read what they write. Hours of marking can be useful.

And the majority of adults share their ignorance, too,

 

[nasu]

Otoh, if kids start to question and argue with you, there is no limit to (and no formula for) where you can go. If you have had much experience of teaching, I am surprised at your comments.

You are right, I don't have experience in teaching at that level. I am just trying to understand or explain the bad perception of science encountered in students engaged in introductory physics courses in college or university.
I can just try to remember how me and my colleagues were in grade 8 and I don't feel that this kind of question or argument would have been too far fetched. But it is a (too) long time ago.:) I suppose my perception is distorted. Because I don't think the kids were intrinsically different then than now.
So you can reasonably expect that every child in an average 8th grade class to be able to write a poem, on a specific theme? I am not challenging this, just asking.
I don't have experience with these kids, as I already mentioned.
But I could not do it even now, and even less in grade 8. So how is that asking them to do this is not considered a bad practice? If I were in that class I would feel really frustrated.

I used the left brain right brain thing in an inexact way but I do know that I have had some very high level conversations with children (and adults) about non-Scientific topics when they clearly have little inclination to Science. I have also met some very capable Scientists who are complete Philistines when it comes to the Arts. Not everyone can be Renaissance Man and school lessons cannot afford to address the few members of a class who happen to be.

No doubt there are differences in aptitudes and skills. I did not question this.
I was just a little unhappy about assuming that poetry is something that everybody has, somehow naturally, whereas some science related thinking is something rare, special or weird. Maybe is a self-enhanced perception due (at least in part) to media.

On the subject of Science Lesson Quality. It is strongly influenced by a very questionable National Curriculum and by the fact than many Science Teachers just do not have the level of education to teach the subject effectively. When teachers are offered massive salaries, the profession will attract people with massive ability. Same as with any other business.

I agree with all this. :)

 

[sophiecentaur]

I can just try to remember how me and my colleagues were in grade 8 and I don't feel that this kind of question or argument would have been too far fetched.
. . . .
So you can reasonably expect that every child in an average 8th grade class to be able to write a poem, on a specific theme? I am not challenging this, just asking.

. . . . .
I was just a little unhappy about assuming that poetry is something that everybody has, somehow naturally, whereas some science related thinking is something rare, special or weird. Maybe is a self-enhanced perception due (at least in part) to media.

As you are the sort of person who accesses PF then I am not surprised you weren't too challenged with any subject that you could 'warm to' at school. When I was in teacher training, an albeit rather cynical, woman teacher said (in an offhand manner) "Don't forget, Andrew, 'average' is 'thick'. It did take a long time to get used to the fact that many of the kids I taught were so much less academically developed than my school contemporaries or my own children. It's easy to make assumptions about how much you say actually gets taken on board. 'Expectations' are one thing but one has to be realistic - despite what the politicians (who want votes) say.

I wasn't the one who brought up Poetry, btw. I do know that I had a period in my student life when I bought a number of poetry books and actually read them all (still do, ammof). Most of my scientific chums give me a strange look if I ever tell them. There are definitely two cultures for many people. (I don't mean PF and the rest)

 

[nasu]

Well, reading poetry is one thing. I do it too sometimes, with some poems and specific poets. :)
Writing is what I was talking about. I know you did not bring it in. I just mentioned as something that bugged me reading the discussion.
I also enjoy music but I never wrote a symphony.

As an unrelated topic, I feel that is more likely that a scientific minded person to be interested in music, arts, literature (even poetry) than having a "right brained" ( ;) ) one to be interested in anything that may smell of science or math. I wonder why. If it's intrinsic to the mind or is biased by media and environment. Isn't considered cool to be ignorant of science or even shameful sometimes not to be? Is this maybe partly due to the education system too? I think that at early ages kids consider science cool. And then during the teen years something happens.
But this is way off topic. Sorry.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Well, reading poetry is one thing. I do it too sometimes, with some poems and specific poets. :)
Writing is what I was talking about. I know you did not bring it in. I just mentioned as something that bugged me reading the discussion.
I also enjoy music but I never wrote a symphony.

As an unrelated topic, I feel that is more likely that a scientific minded person to be interested in music, arts, literature (even poetry) than having a "right brained" ( ;) ) one to be interested in anything that may smell of science or math. I wonder why. If it's intrinsic to the mind or is biased by media and environment. Isn't considered cool to be ignorant of science or even shameful sometimes not to be? Is this maybe partly due to the education system too? I think that at early ages kids consider science cool. And then during the teen years something happens.
But this is way off topic. Sorry.

Yes - off topic and we are on countdown for being moved or in trouble. But I am aware that most teachers of non-Science subjects have totally no clue about there subject. Otoh, a number of my Science colleagues read novels, read history and politics, go to concerts and play music. Science is the new Renaissance, I think.

 

[davenn]

Nice video AT thanks for that

I like packing of spheres. Maybe I could have them put marbles in a small beaker and have them answer questions about how this is a proper model and how it isn't?

But then again,the empty space would be filled with air :/ ...with their model.

no, it wouldn't ... you have to get them to get their thoughts down to the atomic size that the marbles are representing
the atoms of air in the gaps they "see" between the marbles ISNT on the same scale as the atoms represented by the marbles
There is NO room for other atoms of air or any other element to fit in the gaps... if there was, the "marble atoms" would already be filling the gapsDave

 

[leeone]

Just wondering, how do you know this is "what the kids think"? I'm not sure I ever thought that.

I gave the students a pre-test. I also interviewed students one on one. From the highest achieving to the lowest achieving students, they believed that air was between the molecules.

Also...

Students of all ages have trouble understanding that matter is made of discrete particles that are in constant motion and have empty spaces between them. (Novick and Nussbaum, 1978)

Students are deeply connected to a theory of continuous matter. (Nussbaum, 1985)

These are only a few misconceptions students have. Just Google student misconceptions States of Matter and you will find plenty of research done on this topic.

no, it wouldn't ... you have to get them to get their thoughts down to the atomic size that the marbles are representing
the atoms of air in the gaps they "see" between the marbles ISNT on the same scale as the atoms represented by the marbles

Also...I understand this. What people not in education don't understand is that you teach kids one thing, yet they construct their own knowledge based on how you present the material and based on the child's previous experiences. What I was saying is that students will think back to that demo and think to themselves "well air was between the particles in that model...why isn't between them in the real thing?" I was just thinking about what the students would be thinking about. One last thing guys. my lesson plan was a huge success! My evaluator said I was a teaching master, and the evaluation she gave me was extraordinary! She told me to be prepared to be under appreciated by administration for the rest of my life hahahha.

by the end I was asking the class.. "What's between the particles in this table?" and they would all shout out "Absolutely completely empty space!"

It was awesome.

Here was one students poem.

Between the particles of this world lies space empty as a heart
The breath of a dying soul,
the ripples of the pond.
The grasping hands of a new born child,
are empty, filled with nothing.

So many other good ones!

Also...kids who like english, but hate science, may actually enjoy science the one day they get to write a poem!
You have to think of these things as an educator also. It also was a great formative assessment. It allowed me to see if they really took away the concept...and this student obviously did.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Great. Congratulations on your lesson.
Also, you may have managed to spread a little learning amongst non-teaching members of PF, too. Adults just don't seem to remember what it was like as a child. You'd think they'd been born with all the knowledge they have.