News The surprising origins of the current Jihad

[alexandra]

Do I think that what people read affects their world view? Yes I do. As do the companies who spend billions advertising their products each year.
I quite deliberately said the same kind of material. So in your case the question would be, would you be happy for your children to be educated with material using guns and other weapons to teach counting and encouraging crusades against non-believers? Or is it only okay for foreigners to be supplied with that sort of crap.

To bring the discussion back OT (it seems people go out of their way to sabotage topics they don't like - not referring to you here, Art): I totally agree with you, Art - what people read affects their world view. What they are taught at school affects their world view.

If we had one generation of children who were taught that other weird fairy-tale (what's it called? the one meant to counter the theory of evolution?) instead of evolution, how many years of progress would that set humanity back?

The US administration funded the development of textbooks to radicalise a generation of muslim children; well done to all those who had (and to all those who supported and still support) this aim - it has happened. But this (the books) was only one of the tactics used to make Samuel Huntington's right-wing prediction, the 'clash of civilisations', happen (better 'the clash of civilisations' than the creation of a mass-based movement that threatens capitalism, after all). This tactic had to be supplemented by more drastic measures, like accusing predominantly muslim countries of being part of an 'axis of evil', then invading them, toppling their government and killing their civilians - thus setting up a religious conflict that had not existed before its artificial creation.

Oh dear, the Crusades all over again...

 

[Art]

I can imagine anything that would attack the poster instead of his arguments is rather easy for you, seeing as how that's pretty much all you are capable of.

I've actually never responded to anything you have written before, (I'll leave it up to your imagination to determine why this is) but I made an exception in this case because you attacked me. And as you had led with your jaw I couldn't resist the urge to oblige you. You will find if you are civil with me I will also be civil with you, as in I will return to ignoring you.

 

[Townsend]

I've actually never responded to anything you have written before, (I'll leave it up to your imagination to determine why this is)

When have I ever given you a reason before this? This is just another attempt at making a personal attack and to anyone with a brain that is clear as glass.

but I made an exception in this case because you attacked me. And as you had led with your jaw I couldn't resist the urge to oblige you. You will find if you are civil with me I will also be civil with you, as in I will return to ignoring you.

I am sorry but when you said,

Now this part I can agree with

You were attacking ME the poster! So I responded in kind. If you don't like it when it is being done to you, you should stop doing it so regularly to everyone else. In fact nearly all of your diatribe amounts to you saying something to denigrate the poster instead of what the poster is saying, I wonder why you would do that?

All I was doing was playing devils advocate by leaving a post that was open for someone to attack me instead of what I said. You took the bait.

That is what I love about fishing...if you play to their instinct they cannot resist. :

 

[Art]

:
That is what I love about fishing...if you play to their instinct they cannot resist.

Yes I can quite imagine you using yourself as shark bait and shouting Gotcha as some 12 ft great white shark sinks it's teeth into you

 

[Townsend]

Yes I can quite imagine you using yourself as shark bait and shouting Gotcha as some 12 ft great white shark closes it's teeth around you

More diatribe...

I would have never guessed...

 

[Art]

More diatribe...

I would have never guessed...

But it is funny though

 

[Townsend]

Art, you lower the value of these forums with your comments. Why is that you can rarely ever address what a poster is saying? Why do you insist on denigrating the poster instead of his actual post?

 

[Townsend]

But it is funny though

What a tool...

If all anyone wanted to do was made stupid remarks they could easily make you look like the idiot but instead some people try to take others seriously. Why is it that you cannot extend them that same respect that they have given you?

 

[Art]

What a tool...

If all anyone wanted to do was made stupid remarks they could easily make you look like the idiot but instead some people try to take others seriously. Why is it that you cannot extend them that same respect that they have given you?

Lighten up Townsend. It seems you take yourself seriously enough for the both of us. Most people don't mind mild amusing comments but as you obviously do I shall return to ignoring you. I'll leave you with the opportunity for the last word and say goodbye.

 

[Townsend]

Lighten up Townsend. It seems you take yourself seriously enough for the both of us. Most people don't mind mild amusing comments but as you obviously do I shall return to ignoring you. Goodbye.

I do mind your comments, as their purpose is not humor. Your intentions are to make the posters comments seem less believable by attempting to make the poster seem dumb or irrational, or whatever you can manage to come up with. It is not funny and I really get sick of trying to glean useful viewpoints from the crap that is posted.

Goodbye

I see you would rather write me off than to engage my comments, as I tend to get right to the point. Where I come from we call that a retreat.

 

[2CentsWorth]

No, I don't. You readily admit your inexplicable hostility towards the President and political conservatives, and anyone can search your username for posts in any collection of forums. I've found two in Biology and one in Earth.



Blah, blah, blah. If you're going to insist on not addressing the issue at hand at all, I don't see what else we have to say to each other.

Rev Prez

I post in GD (General Discussion), but primarily in this section too. In my opinion, this section is political science and should be under "Other Sciences" along with psychology, economics, and for that matter philosophy could be combined with these "social sciences" along with history, etc. Members may have education in these areas rather than physics, or mathematics, etc. I don't have much time to participate in PF, so I tend to come to this section, which seems to address a range of topics including energy, environment, and so forth. Also as an FYI, posts don't count in GD, so if you look at a member's number of posts you can see that they are posting in sections other than GD. In any event, what is the relevance of the point you make except an attempt to be condescending?

In the meantime I thought there was nothing 'inexplicable' in regard to the comprehensive summary of the political position provided.

 

[Rev Prez]

I post in GD (General Discussion), but primarily in this section too. In my opinion, this section is political science...

And what contributions have you made worthy of "political science" discussion forum?

In the meantime I thought there was nothing 'inexplicable' in regard to the comprehensive summary of the political position provided.

It is inexplicable in that his incoherent ranting was way off the reservation.

Rev Prez

 

[2CentsWorth]

And what contributions have you made worthy of "political science" discussion forum?



It is inexplicable in that his incoherent ranting was way off the reservation.

Rev Prez

Considering the source of this opinion, I won't concern myself, and I doubt other members will either.

 

[Art]

Considering the source of this opinion, I won't concern myself, and I doubt other members will either.

I find if you just assume he's trying to be a clown to amuse you and respond accordingly he's not quite as irritating.

 

[SOS2008]

I find if you just assume he's trying to be a clown to amuse you and respond accordingly he's not quite as irritating.

Ah yes, I see the humor now - we're not worthy, we're not worthy! As for the reservations, nothing but casinos these days (the white man finally pays ).

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I'm going to repeat what I said in another thread. You are all just giving your "personal" opinions on world events here. Two people looking at the same event will come away with two different opinions. Doesn't mean you are right, doesn't mean you are wrong.

This forum is giving you the opportunity to discuss your views. If you cannot do this without giving those of opposing views the same courtesy you give those with similar views, I will have to start imposing restrictions to keep the conversations civil. I am sure you all prefer me to stay out of it.

Let's all take a step back and take a breath before we hit that "submit" button.

I'd just like to Echo this.

 

[yourdadonapogostick]

...O...M...effin...G...

 

[SOS2008]

...O...M...effin...G...

PF is a great forum compared to other forums. However, it is not impervious to trolls:

Internet troll
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
In the context of the Internet, a troll is a message that seems to at least one user to be inflammatory or hostile, which by effect or design causes a disruption in discourse. The word is also often used to describe a person posting such messages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Other signs of trolling are multiple and consecutive responses to member posts, often with one-line comments like:

Originally Posted by Rev Prez
Another explanation is that fifty percent--the armed half--of the country think that you and the remaining 42 are acting crazy.

Edited to:

Let's try a more productive tact. Are you suggesting it was proper to impeach President Clinton?

Followed by:

I didn't ask that. I asked you.

Which isn’t what was asked, and even if it was, what relevance does it have?

Another sign is when such individual is asked repeatedly to provide reliable evidence and make a case, but such is never forthcoming.

Okay then (and I have given thought to the submit button) -- to borrow a favorite line from Russ -- Carry on...

 

[edward]

Meanwhile back to the topic

There are several math questions from the "infamous Books" here.

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:qHIXgxxP5REJ:www.columbia.edu/cu/sipa/REGIONAL/IAS/documents/hoodbhoypaper.doc+american+textbooks+afghanistan+russia&hl=en

 

[SOS2008]

There are several math questions from the "infamous Books" here.

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:qHIXgxxP5REJ:www.columbia.edu/cu/sipa/REGIONAL/IAS/documents/hoodbhoypaper.doc+american+textbooks+afghanistan+russia&hl=en

Very interesting to see academic writings from the region:

...The United States, in support of the Afghan resistance, waged an exceedingly elaborate, expensive, and ultimately successful covert war. …With Pakistan's General Zia-ul-Haq as America's foremost ally and Saudi Arabia as the principal source of funds, the CIA openly recruited Islamic holy warriors from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Algeria. Radical Islam went into overdrive as its superpower ally and mentor funneled support to the mujahiddin.

Even in the mid 1990's, long before the 9/11 attack on the United States, it was clear that the victorious alliance had unwittingly created a dynamic now beyond its control. The network of Islamic militant organizations created primarily out of the need to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan did not disappear after the immediate goal was achieved but, instead, like any good military-industrial complex, grew from strength to strength.

...Given the highly conservative nature of Afghan society and the spontaneous resistance to the Afghan communist resistance, it did not need a genius to suggest that Islamic international solidarity could be used as a powerful weapon.

...But still more importantly, to go heart and soul for jihad was crucial at a time when Saudi legitimacy as the guardians of Islam was under strong challenge by Iran, which pointed to the continued occupation of Palestine by America's partner, Israel...

Thanks for the link edward.

 

[alexandra]

Considering the source of this opinion, I won't concern myself, and I doubt other members will either.

A fair comment, 2Cents.

 

[alexandra]

Math lessons from the books:

An example is the textbook series underwritten by US grants through the mujahideen-operated "Education Center for Afghanistan" in the 1980's. These textbooks sought to counterbalance Marxism through creating enthusiasm in Islamic militancy. A third-grade mathematics textbook, for example, asks the following question:

One group of mujahidin attack 50 Russian soldiers. In that attack 20 Russians are killed. How many Russians fled?

The speed of a Kalashnikov bullet is 800 meters per second. If a Russian is at a distance of 3200 meters from a mujahid, and that mujahid aims at the Russian's head, calculate how many seconds it will take for the bullet to strike the Russian in the forehead

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:qHIXgxxP5REJ:www.columbia.edu/cu/sipa/REGIONAL/IAS/documents/hoodbhoypaper.doc+american+textbooks+afghanistan+russia&hl=en

The textbook developers get 0/10 for subtlety

 

[Bilal]

I was child in 80s during the war with Soviet. In that moment they filled Palestine (under Israeli occupation) by all types of Mujahideen propaganda. We could get any tapes or books about mujahideen for free ... the Hollywood movies showing Rambo fighting with mujahedeen against the Soviet.
Many of people used to shout in public places and mosques : please we should unite with American (people of the book-Christian) against those evil atheists (USSR).

I do believe that such huge propaganda is financed by USA and its alliance to encourage the half-educated people to join the war.

 

[Yonoz]

I was child in 80s during the war with Soviet. In that moment they filled Palestine (under Israeli occupation) by all types of Mujahideen propaganda. We could get any tapes or books about mujahideen for free ...

Who's "they"? Was it the Americans? The Israelis? Why would "they" fill the occupied territories with "Mujahideen propaganda"? From your previous childhood recollections, I would assume the IDF ruler would censor movies showing Islamic insurgency...

I do believe that such huge propaganda is financed by USA and its alliance to encourage the half-educated people to join the war.

How would that work exactly? What could the Americans gain from this? Would the Palestinians organise a military and send it to fight in Afghanistan?

 

[edward]

Origins of the Jihad

I think what Bilal was trying to say was that the original intentions of the U.S. in inspiring Islamic radicalism to combat communism in Afganistan backfired in our faces. The fundamentalist Islamic movement that we helped establish in Afganistan has spread to other countries, and is now our nemeses. The children educated in the manner described in the link are now the grown men with whom Americans must militarily engage in Afganistan.

America, as it has other times in the past, made an error in judgement that has come back to haunt us.

 

[Bilal]

we call those people as ''Takfiri'' (people who claim to have the truth and rejects the others including muslims". Actually their ideas exist since centuries, and the Muslims armies (e.g. Abbasid and Ayubi Empires) spent many years to destroy them completely. Just I would like to show that those people got a lot of support from USA in 80s to fight the Soviet for religious reasons……

I doubt these groups will get such power without the war of Afghanistan and without the support of USA.

It is enough to say, that we never hear about such groups before 1979 (the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan) because nobody in our countries willing to accept the ‘’ideology of those people” which based on pure “fascist theocracy”, the same as our nations rejected them in early Islam and during Crusaders wars.

They used to be isolated individuals who failed to integrate in their societies till the war of Afghanistan started , so they got a lot of money and encouragement to establish long-term strong infrastructure ... (CIA believed in that time that communism will survive for several centuries, so long term strategy of these groups is important)

For example, one of related historical groups called The Hashshashin (also Hashishin), or Assassins (which used now to describe the terrorists) in the 11th century. In that time Muslims wasted more money and soldiers to defeat those Hashashin than their wars with crusaders.

http://www.grohol.com/psypsych/Hashshashin

I do not claim that Alqaeda is follow the same ideology of those Hashashin , but at least they used their tactics.

 

[edward]

Great post Bilal. You can speak for yourself very effectively. I of course look at this from an Americans point of view. I do, however, acknowledge and appreciate your point of view.

 

[Bilal]

Welcome Edward

I apologies for my poor English. I studied this language for many years (since elementary school) and I still have some troubles in the grammar!

Great post Bilal. You can speak for yourself very effectively. I of course look at this from an Americans point of view. I do, however, acknowledge and appreciate your point of view.

By the way, we should understand that is not all Islamic organization are the same … for example the current Turkish government originated from the ‘’Muslims brothers movement”. This is the largest movement in ME which exist almost in every country. Although their wing in Palestine (Hamas) uses “suicide bombers” tactics against Israel, they believe in democracy and they reject the ideas of Alqaeda to establish fascist theocratic State. They accept to live in socialist or secular country and to be in the opposite if they lose the election.

In fact there is real ideological war between these Islamic movements since many years. Our problem is only with those who want to divide the world as ‘’good vs. evil’’.

 

[Yonoz]

I think what Bilal was trying to say was that the original intentions of the U.S. in inspiring Islamic radicalism to combat communism in Afganistan backfired in our faces. The fundamentalist Islamic movement that we helped establish in Afganistan has spread to other countries, and is now our nemeses. The children educated in the manner described in the link are now the grown men with whom Americans must militarily engage in Afganistan.

America, as it has other times in the past, made an error in judgement that has come back to haunt us.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the specific details of Bilal's comments as well as Bilal's previous claims in this forum.
Bilal claimed in the past he experienced very tough censorship by the Israeli military ruler during his childhood in the occupied territories. This last claim stands in sharp contrast to what he described.
He also made various other claims that did not withstand the test of proof IMO.

 

[Bilal]

Nobody can deny that Israel who control our education system till 1993 and they did not let us to learn about our country, but this has nothing to do with the topic here.

Simply, In West Bank and in the pro USA Muslims countries (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan, Egypt ...) , it was so easy to get books, tapes and information about Mujahideen in Afghanistan.I presented my country as example from my real life showing how it was in ME in that era.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the specific details of Bilal's comments as well as Bilal's previous claims in this forum.
Bilal claimed in the past he experienced very tough censorship by the Israeli military ruler during his childhood in the occupied territories. This last claim stands in sharp contrast to what he described.
He also made various other claims that did not withstand the test of proof IMO.

 

[alexandra]

There are several math questions from the "infamous Books" here.

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:qHIXgxxP5REJ:www.columbia.edu/cu/sipa/REGIONAL/IAS/documents/hoodbhoypaper.doc+american+textbooks+afghanistan+russia&hl=en

This link was a great find, edward; thanks - not only does it have much relevant information, but it also comes from a very credible source, Columbia University I just came across yet another interesting passage from it (I have bolded some statements to draw attention to them):

Fathering Global Militant Islamic Revivalism

Why did the Afghan jihad succeed when so many other initiatives to promote Muslim unity (e.g. revival of the Caliphate in the early 20th century) failed? In large part, this was because of a gradual but fundamental change in Muslim attitudes towards the world around them. Islamic fundamentalism simply did not exist until approximately 30 years ago as a political force. Today many important Muslim leaders are fundamentalists but, looking back at the last century, there was not even one! Turkey's Kemal Ataturk, Algeria's Ahmed Ben Bella, Indonesia's Sukarno, Pakistan's Muhammad Ali Jinnah, Egypt's Gamal Abdel Nasser, and Iran's Mohammed Mosaddeq all sought to organize their societies on the basis of secular values.

It took barely a generation or two for the nationalist period to be canceled out by rising religious fervor. The reasons are complex7 but one truth stands out – the imperial interests of Britain, and later the United States, feared independent nationalism. Anyone willing to collaborate was preferred, including the ultraconservative Islamic regime of Saudi Arabia. In time, as the Cold War pressed in, independent nationalism became still more intolerable. In 1953, Mosaddeq of Iran was overthrown in a CIA coup and replaced by Reza Shah Pahlavi who faithfully served US economic and political interests. Again, for economic motives, Britain targeted Nasser while Indonesia's nationalist president Sukarno was replaced by Suharto after a bloody CIA-led coup that left hundreds of thousands dead.

More: http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:qHIXgxxP5REJ:www.columbia.edu/cu/sipa/REGIONAL/IAS/documents/hoodbhoypaper.doc+american+textbooks+afghanistan+russia&hl=en

 

[Burnsys]

Do you remember Bill O'Reilly vs Jeremy Glick?

GLICK: Our current president now inherited a legacy from his father and inherited a political legacy that's responsible for training militarily, economically, and situating geopolitically the parties involved in the alleged assassination and the murder of my father and countless of thousands of others. So I don't see why it's surprising...
O'REILLY: All right. Now let me stop you here. So...
GLICK: ... for you to think that I would come back and want to support...
O'REILLY: It is surprising, and I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why it's surprising.
GLICK: ... escalating...
O'REILLY: You are mouthing a far left position that is a marginal position in this society, which you're entitled to.
GLICK: It's marginal -- right.
O'REILLY: You're entitled to it, all right, but you're -- you see, even -- I'm sure your beliefs are sincere, but what upsets me is I don't think your father would be approving of this.
GLICK: Well, actually, my father thought that Bush's presidency was illegitimate.
O'REILLY: Maybe he did, but...
GLICK: I also didn't think that Bush...
O'REILLY: ... I don't think he'd be equating this country as a terrorist nation as you are.
GLICK: Well, I wasn't saying that it was necessarily like that.
O'REILLY: Yes, you are. You signed...
GLICK: What I'm saying is...
O'REILLY: ... this, and that absolutely said that.
GLICK: ... is that in -- six months before the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan, starting in the Carter administration and continuing and escalating while Bush's father was head of the CIA, we recruited a hundred thousand radical mujahadeens to combat a democratic government in Afghanistan, the Turaki government.
O'REILLY: All right. I don't want to...
GLICK: Maybe...
O'REILLY: I don't want to debate world politics with you.
GLICK: Well, why not? This is about world politics.
O'REILLY: All right. You didn't support the action against Afghanistan to remove the Taliban. You were against it, OK.
GLICK: Why would I want to brutalize and further punish the people in Afghanistan...
O'REILLY: Who killed your father!
GLICK: The people in Afghanistan...
O'REILLY: Who killed your father.
GLICK: ... didn't kill my father.
O'REILLY: Sure they did. The al Qaeda people were trained there.
GLICK: The al Qaeda people? What about the Afghan people?
O'REILLY: See, I'm more angry about it than you are!
GLICK: So what about George Bush?
O'REILLY: What about George Bush? He had nothing to do with it.
GLICK: The director -- senior as director of the CIA.
O'REILLY: He had nothing to do with it.
GLICK: So the people that trained a hundred thousand Mujahadeen who were...
O'REILLY: Man, I hope your mom isn't watching this.
GLICK: Well, I hope she is.
O'REILLY: I hope your mother is not watching this because you -- that's it. I'm not going to say anymore.
GLICK: OK.
O'REILLY: In respect for your father...
GLICK: On September 14, do you want to know what I'm doing?
O'REILLY: Shut up. Shut up.
GLICK: Oh, please don't tell me to shut up.
O'REILLY: As respect -- as respect -- in respect for your father, who was a Port Authority worker, a fine American, who got killed unnecessarily by barbarians...
GLICK: By radical extremists who were trained by this government...
O'REILLY: Out of respect for him...
GLICK: ... not the people of America.
O'REILLY: ... I'm not going to...
GLICK: ... The people of the ruling class, the small minority.
O'REILLY: Cut his mic. I'm not going to dress you down anymore, out of respect for your father. We will be back in a moment with more of THE FACTOR.
http://www.oreilly-sucks.com/transcripts/oreillyglick.htm

With William Casey as the director of the CIA, the largest covert operation in history was launched after Reagan signed the “National Security Decision Directive 166”, calling for American efforts to drive Soviet forces from Afghanistan “by all means available”. US counter-insurgency experts worked closely with the ISI in organizing mujahideen groups and in planning operations inside Afghanistan. Indeed, it was evident to residents in Islamabad and Peshawar in the 1980’s that large numbers of Americans were present and involved in mysterious activities. But the most important contribution of the US was to create international linkages and bring in men and material from around the Arab world and beyond. The most hardened and ideologically dedicated men were sought on the logic that they would be the best fighters. Advertisements, paid for from CIA funds, were placed in newspapers and newsletters around the world offering inducements and motivations to join the Jihad.

Perhaps the most decisive single weapon was the shoulder-fired ground-to-air missile known as the Stinger. From 1986 the Afghan mujahideen started receiving Blowpipe and Stinger ground-to-air missiles from Britain and the United States. The first shipment went exclusively to the fundamentalist wing of the resistance; that is, the three groups favored by the ISI and headed by Hekmatyar, Khalis, and Rabbani. The new weapons made Soviet helicopters and low-flying air-support missions exceedingly vulnerable and, even today, helicopter and aircraft wrecks litter Afghanistan’s landscape.
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:qHIXgxxP5REJ:www.columbia.edu/cu/sipa/REGIONAL/IAS/documents/hoodbhoypaper.doc+american+textbooks+afghanistan+russia&hl=en

 

[Art]

Do you remember Bill O'Reilly vs Jeremy Glick?

With William Casey as the director of the CIA, the largest covert operation in history was launched after Reagan signed the “National Security Decision Directive 166”, calling for American efforts to drive Soviet forces from Afghanistan “by all means available”. US counter-insurgency experts worked closely with the ISI in organizing mujahideen groups and in planning operations inside Afghanistan. Indeed, it was evident to residents in Islamabad and Peshawar in the 1980’s that large numbers of Americans were present and involved in mysterious activities. But the most important contribution of the US was to create international linkages and bring in men and material from around the Arab world and beyond. The most hardened and ideologically dedicated men were sought on the logic that they would be the best fighters. Advertisements, paid for from CIA funds, were placed in newspapers and newsletters around the world offering inducements and motivations to join the Jihad.

Perhaps the most decisive single weapon was the shoulder-fired ground-to-air missile known as the Stinger. From 1986 the Afghan mujahideen started receiving Blowpipe and Stinger ground-to-air missiles from Britain and the United States. The first shipment went exclusively to the fundamentalist wing of the resistance; that is, the three groups favored by the ISI and headed by Hekmatyar, Khalis, and Rabbani. The new weapons made Soviet helicopters and low-flying air-support missions exceedingly vulnerable and, even today, helicopter and aircraft wrecks litter Afghanistan’s landscape.
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:qHIXgxxP5REJ:www.columbia.edu/cu/sipa/REGIONAL/IAS/documents/hoodbhoypaper.doc+american+textbooks+afghanistan+russia&hl=en

Excellent link to O'Reilly. I despise that guy. Unfortunately he typifies the right-wing conservatives in the USA. They have an unshakeable belief that they are right and everybody else is misguided and if you can't be convinced to change your viewpoint to theirs' then you are simply a troublemaker who needs to be shouted down.
The only good news is that they appear to be becoming more and more desperate in their propoganda which IMO suggests they fear their bubble is about to burst.

 

[pallidin]

Well, I say let's cut to the chase.

Is there any hope for a cessation in al-Qaeda based terrorist acts?

And, if so, how can this be done?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Excellent link to O'Reilly. I despise that guy. Unfortunately he typifies the right-wing conservatives in the USA. They have an unshakeable belief that they are right and everybody else is misguided and if you can't be convinced to change your viewpoint to theirs' then you are simply a troublemaker who needs to be shouted down.
The only good news is that they appear to be becoming more and more desperate in their propoganda which IMO suggests they fear their bubble is about to burst.

I fear we have equal 'jihadists' in the USA.

Most of you will probbly remember the comments made between Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwel immediately post 9/11 blaming the event on non-christians and then have read the subsequent apology from Robertson distancing himself from the comments.

JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system.

Well, I hate to report back that there has been some revisionism going on.

While http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/falwell.htm#washpost and truthorfiction.com still reports the story as it happened, how has the credibility of a nation gone from the condemnation of these words to support for a president who claimed he would 'ban gay marriage' to gain the vote from the pulpit while America wallows in Iraq?

How is it that the 'Preacher in Chief' can still stand at the 'pulpit of power' having gained the presidency a second time by mobilizing the religious right over an issue he now refuses to act upon (read the exit polls as to WHY they voted for him), claim a renewed mandate in Iraq and then blatantly make statements against all the reports created by his own 'commissions' regarding terrorism, WMD etc.?

He has praised the leadership of President Bush, whom he extolled as "a man who prays in the Oval Office." "George Bush was not elected by a majority of the voters in the United States," Boykin told an Oregon congregation. "He was appointed by God."

...

Boykin is also in a senior Pentagon policymaking position, and it's a serious mistake to allow a man who believes in a Christian "jihad" to hold such a job.

For one thing, Boykin has made it clear that he takes his orders not from his Army superiors but from God � which is a worrisome line of command. For another, it is both imprudent and dangerous to have a senior officer guiding the war on terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan who believes that Islam is an idolatrous, sacrilegious religion against which we are waging a holy war.

And judging by his words, that is what he believes.

In a speech at a church in Daytona, Fla., in January, Boykin told the following story:

"There was a man in Mogadishu named Osman Atto," whom Boykin described as a top lieutenant of Mohammed Farah Aidid.

When Boykin's Delta Force commandos went after Atto, they missed him by seconds, he said. "He went on CNN and he laughed at us, and he said, 'They'll never get me because Allah will protect me. Allah will protect me.'

"Well, you know what?" Boykin continued. "I knew that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol." Atto later was captured.

Other countries, Boykin said last year, "have lost their morals, lost their values. But America is still a Christian nation."

The general has said he has no doubt that our side is the side of the true God. He says he attends prayer services five times a week.

In Iraq, he told the Oregon congregation, special operations forces were victorious precisely because of their faith in God. "Ladies and gentlemen I want to impress upon you that the battle that we're in is a spiritual battle," he said . "Satan wants to destroy this nation, he wants to destroy us as a nation, and he wants to destroy us as a Christian army."

Since 9/11, the war against terrorism has become almost exclusively a special operations war, melding military and CIA paramilitary and covert activities with finer and finer grained integrated intelligence information. Hence, the creation of Boykin's new job as deputy undersecretary of Defense for intelligence.

Anyone stating that this is a 'one sided jihad' is seriously mistaken when one considers the training received in the US military:

TEAM JESUS'

An April report by the watchdog group Americans United for Separation of Church and State said academy instructors proselytized in classrooms and senior cadets harassed non-Christian junior cadets. Other issues included football coach Fisher DeBerry hanging a locker room banner saying, "I am a member of Team Jesus Christ."

The religious bias investigation followed a decade of sexual assaults and harassment against female cadets at the academy that a Pentagon report last December blamed on leadership failures by top Air Force officials.

Brady's report found a "perception of religious intolerance" at the academy, and called for new guidelines for commanders and supervisors on appropriate religious expression as well as training in religious diversity and respect.

Without offering details, the report said cadets had made "religious slurs" and "disparaging remarks," and some members of the faculty and staff had expressed strong religious beliefs "in ways that others found offensive."

"General Brady found that a combination of immature behavior by peers and barriers to reasonable accommodation had made some adherents to minority beliefs feel ignored by the institution," Acting Secretary of the Air Force Michael Dominguez said in a memo accompanying Brady's report.

Air Force Capt. MeLinda Morton, an academy chaplain and Lutheran minister who complained that evangelical Christians there were bent on converting young cadets, resigned from the military ahead of the release of Brady's report.

Army Lt. Gen. William Boykin, a senior Pentagon intelligence official, in 2003 called the struggle against Islamic extremists a battle with Satan. In a speech, Boykin referred to a Muslim fighter in Somalia, and said, "Well, you know what I knew, that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol."

...

Kristen Leslie, a Yale theology professor, said Saturday that no one from the task force had contacted her. Leslie attended a basic training exercise at the academy last year and reported observing an academy chaplain tell cadets to warn their colleagues who are not born again that they will burn in hell.

Mikey Weinstein, an academy graduate who has a son at the academy, said Saturday the only contact he has had with the task force was a phone call asking him to stop criticizing it. Weinstein, who is Jewish, has said his son has been called a "Christ killer" by evangelical Christian cadets.

Weinstein said he has heard from 117 people complaining of religious intolerance at the academy.

Jennifer Stephens, Air Force spokeswoman on the task force, said Saturday the task force also did not meet with Capt. Melinda Morton, an Air Force chaplain who has said she was fired for exposing the influence of evangelical Christians at the academy. Stephens said Morton was on leave when the task force spent four days at the academy.

Morton said the task force did speak with her by telephone Friday, asking her to cite examples of religious intolerance. But she was not asked about the decision to remove her as second in command of the chaplaincy corps.

The academy has denied that Morton was fired, saying she was replaced because she would be leaving soon anyway.

 

[kat]

A very good source of information on this is "“Nationalism, Revolution, and Jihad: Im-ages of Violence in Afghan Primary Education Text-books", Sorry, not available online as far as I know. Interestingly enough the Soviet books also were full of military propoganda which also appears to be echoed in much of the "Jihad" rhetoric of today.

We really need to find a way to disallow this type of thing from happening. I'm not sure exactly how we could adjust or system of governing to do this. I'm really more interested in ideas to improve longterm foriegn policy to avoid empowering dictators, undermining democracies and...of course distributing violent textbooks to children.

I can appreciate the AHA! factor here..but really, I'm don't think I'm quite willing to just sit back and take it because of something that happened while I was not even of voting age and most Americans were not even aware of happening.


Also, I don't think you can legitimately say it was the birth of Jihad, I would be more willing to believe that the text were based on beliefs already present within the society particularly since it was actually the seven party alliance of Mujahidin that oversaw the writing of the actual textbooks.

 

[edward]

Birth of Jihad

KAT

It may not have been the birth of jihad, but it was a driving factor that led to todays problems in the area. And it was the University of Nebraska who produced the textbooks with Islamic oversight. Most importantly, the US government is still making stupid mistakes in judgement.

QUOTE:
But the Mujahideen had a lot of help to create this warrior culture in the school system from the United States, which paid for the Mujahideen propaganda in the textbooks. It was all part of American Cold War policy in the 1980s, helping the Mujahideen defeat the Soviet army on Afghan soil.

QUOTE:
University of Nebraska
The University of Nebraska was front and center in that effort. The university did the publishing and had an Afghan study center and a director who was ready to help defeat the "Red Menace."

 

[kat]

KAT

It may not have been the birth of jihad, but it was a driving factor that led to todays problems in the area.

Hmmm, perhaps.
Could you give me a short list of what you consider to be the predominant problems in that area today?

Also, if this is the "Origin" of the current "Jihad" then we must prove a connection between afghanistan educated children (Now young adults) and terrorist attacks against western targets. Which known terrorist were actually afhanistan educated? How many held at Gitmo, are actually Afghanistan citizens? My sense was that most were from other areas?

Most importantly, the US government is still making stupid mistakes in judgement.

Hmm, I think the greatest issue has been shortsightedness and a lack of respect for human beings who are not anglo saxon and of so called "Western" cultures. It's also not "Conservative" or "Right winged" issue. The so called "Left" and "Liberal" faction of this country has been just as guilty of having a blind eye towards human rights issues outside of the western culture.

 

[alexandra]

This isn't an official Columbia University posting. Oh come now alexandra, I thought better of you. Any student can post anything until they are discovered and deleted by the university.

This paper is referenced - it is based on research conducted using mainstream published credible sources (books published by South End Press, Vanguard Books, Cambridge University Press, Harvard University Press), and it is published by Columbia University (and, by implication, acknowledged as an academic paper). It therefore constitutes a researched academic paper and is thus a credible source of information, at least in my opinion.

 

[Evo]

Evo, it was a researched paper. Much that is posted on this DB is not researched - many of the postings are just people's opinions (many of them totally unsubstantiated). As a researched paper (whether it was a student who researched it or a qualified academic), surely it can be quoted in our informal discussions?

I haven't said anything about the contents of the link, only correcting your assumption that the university endorses it.

Edward, this answers your post also.

 

[ron damon]

I guess you reap what you sow

 

[Astronuc]

The current "jihad" is somewhat amorphous - because it involves a broad network of groups.

Part of the network can be attributed to the Afghan mujahideen, who were supported by many parties, including Osama bin Laden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen

A wealthy Saudi named Osama bin Laden was a prominent mujahideen organizer and financier; his Maktab al-Khadamat (MAK) (Office of Services) funnelled money, arms, and Muslim fighters from around the world into Afghanistan, with the assistance and support of the American, Pakistani, and Saudi governments. In 1988, bin Laden broke away from the MAK.

Another actor is this matter is Adnan Khashoggi, who along with people like Oliver North, George H. W. Bush, Ronald Reagan are implicated in the Iran-Contra scandal - http://www.nndb.com/group/815/000044683/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra

http://www.rotten.com/library/history/political-scandal/iran-contra/

(I don't vouch for the accuracy of these websites, but Wiki is usually considered reasonably accurate)

In late 2001, Pentagon officials acknowledged that some of the 2,000 missiles sent to Afghan fighters during the 1980s might have fallen into the hands of Taliban or Al-Qaeda fighters.

from http://www.payvand.com/news/05/feb/1000.html

Afghan authorities are launching a new push to persuade people to hand in Stinger missiles dating back to the war against the Soviet Union in the 1980s.

New push for Afghan disarmament

The control of US military aid in Afghanistan was not as tight as it should have been.

 

[loseyourname]

Here's a piece written by the same man talking about how the Pakistani national curriculum (his actual area of expertise, aside from nuclear physics) teaches children to be xenophobic and hateful of others, while being obedient and unquestioning of their Islamic leaders.

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2000-09/14hoodbhoy.htm

From now on the struggle for Pakistan was no longer to be shown as a victorious struggle for a Muslim homeland. Instead, it was to be depicted as the movement for an Islamic state run according to Islamic law. Even if it conflicted with reality, the heroes of the Pakistan movement - Jinnah, Iqbal, Syed Ahmed Khan - were to be projected as Islamic heroes. Furthermore all subjects, including the sciences, were to be speedily Islamized.

National Bureau of Curriculum and Textbooks Federal Ministry of Education, 1995.

At the completion of Class-V, the child should be able to:

"Demonstrate by actions a belief in the fear of Allah."

"Make speeches on Jehad and Shahadat"

"Understand Hindu-Muslim differences and the resultant need for Pakistan."

"India's evil designs against Pakistan."

"Collect pictures of policemen, soldiers, and National Guards"

Looks like this goes on all over the Muslim world. Note that he doesn't implicate anybody but Pakistan itself here. No blaming the US.

 

[GENIERE]

It's threads like this that make me miss Zero's influence.

Yikes! Kat I suggest some alcohol therapy. I’ll stick with Evo.

She did, however, delete a really good joke I posted. It would not have offended more than 1 or 2 billion people.

...

 

[Evo]

It's threads like this that make me miss Zero's influence. Despite my mutterings about his biased "mentoring" he would have never let this thread get so out of hand.
Evo is far gentler and far more polite, which unfortunately in instances like this I don't think work towards improving this particular forum.
Quite frankly, I think the majority of postings on the last several pages should be deleted allowing for this thread to get back on topic minus the b.s.

Yes, I should have ignored Smoking Man, I am guilty of derailing the thread in hopes he would understand that he didn't understand. Deleting and steering the thread back.

Zero locked threads alot, didn't he?

She did, however, delete a really good joke I posted. It would not have offended more than 1 or 2 billion people.

Well, I left it up until the threats started coming in if I didn't delete it. I thought it was funny, if taken the right way.

 

[Evo]

EVO

One last post and I am out of this forum permanently.

Universities do not endorse anything on their web sites, or anywhere else, not even statements made or published by their own faculty.

Universities primarily endorse legal matters, building and expansion projects and enrollment procedures ect. Some divisions of universities, especially health departments, endorse medical plans and programs such as safe sex.

For you neo cons: someday you will have to face the truth about what this country has done to others.

edward, I do owe you an apology for not checking if there was some reason your link was in African studies.

 

[Astronuc]

Regarding certain personal attacks upon Evo (the one to which I refer was removed, and rightfully so), it is really unfair to Evo, especially when in the immediately preceding post (1 hr earlier):

edward, I do owe you an apology for not checking if there was some reason your link was in African studies.

Evo is quite correct - just because something is posted on a website, that does not constitute endorsement per se, unless it pertains to business of the university, or it's academic and related programs.

Unfortunately, it took some time to verify that the citation was a paper in a conference held at the university.

Even, so Universities and other institutions often offer disclaimers regarding papers presented by outside parties.
----------------------------------

Re: the personal attacks. Come on folks, be nice and stop attacking the posters - one should respond (and be critical) to the posts. And provide evidence to support one's position.

It is most appropriate to contact a SuperMentor by PM, and not by personal attack in a forum.

----------------------------------

As for the OP, yes the US has historically had major problems in its foreign policy (so has every other nation, IMO). In this case, supplying textbooks of highly questionable content ( a fact mentioned in many other sources besides the Washington Post ). While it is entirely probable, given the number and distribution of these textbooks, that some of those students are now part of the "jihad", no direct evidence has been forthcoming.

Certainly US support for mujahideen has perhaps backfired. The concern was raised almost 20 years ago in the intelligence community. The term is "blowback". Unfortunately, for various reasons, it was not addressed as effectively as should have been, and we now have the significant problem of international terrorism.

Let's all be more thoughtful about what we are posting, and more respectful of other people, even if we disagree with the other's position.

 

[solutions in a box]

kidnap and murder

Wow

This is the only thread that I have ever seen that was first kidnapped by trolls and then murderded by a monotor-mentor.

If anyone wants to know the real reason why the USA kept supporting the Taliban even after the Russians left, it was because Unocal wanted a stable government so that they could build a pipeline in Afghanistan.

just google: (Unocal Afghanistan oil pipe line)

Or just for kicks: (Cheney Afghanistan oil pipeline)

For a comprehnsive read go to the link below and its sub links:

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/q7.html


This link is endorsed by:
Uncle Jeds internet news and live fishin bait sales.

 

[GENIERE]

…If anyone wants to know the real reason why the USA kept supporting the Taliban even after the Russians left, it was because Unocal wanted a stable government so that they could build a pipeline in Afghanistan.

Yeah! It does seem silly. I would have blasted a canal through Iran.


...

 

[Burnsys]

Wow. remember the textbooks:

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:qHIXgxxP5REJ:www.columbia.edu/cu/sipa/REGIONAL/IAS/documents/hoodbhoypaper.doc+american+textbooks+afghanistan+russia&hl=en

The speed of a Kalashnikov bullet is 800 meters per second. If a Russian is at a distance of 3200 meters from a mujahid, and that mujahid aims at the Russian’s head, calculate how many seconds it will take for the bullet to strike the Russian in the forehead

The quotes above are taken from children’s textbooks published under a $50 million grant from the United States Agency for International Development that ran from September 1986 through June 1994 and was administered by the University of Nebraska at Omaha. According to Craig Davis, the UNO program staff chose to ignore the images of Islamic militancy in the children’s textbooks for the first five years of the program because “the University of Nebraska did not wish to be seen imposing American values on Afghan educators”.

University of Nebraska at Omaha was teaching kids about speed of kalashnicov bullets and how to kill rusians with the cia money (United States Agency for International Development)

Well they also teach afghans to build pipelines with Unocal money

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa48119.000/hfa48119_0.HTM
Next we would like to hear from Mr. John J. Maresca, vice president of international relations, Unocal Corporation. You may proceed as you wish.

Mr. Chairman, as you know, we have worked very closely with the University of Nebraska at Omaha in developing a training program for Afghanistan which will be open to both men and women, and which will operate in both parts of the country, the north and south.

-------------
http://www.publicintegrity.org/wow/bio.aspx?act=pro&ddlC=61

Unocal hoped to facilitate a business relationship with the Taliban in order to promote a natural gas pipeline project. The company was the development manager for the seven-member Central Asia Gas pipeline consortium that also included Saudi Arabia's Delta Oil, Indonesia Petroleum, three other companies and the Turkmenistan government.

Unocal offered the University of Nebraska at Omaha an up-to-two-year contract worth as much $1.8 million to train Afghan men to build pipeline, which would run from Turkmenistan through a Taliban-controlled portion of Afghanistan to Pakistan, where it would be marketed. The pipeline could also be extended into India.