News The surprising origins of the current Jihad

[ron damon]

I guess you reap what you sow

 

[Astronuc]

The current "jihad" is somewhat amorphous - because it involves a broad network of groups.

Part of the network can be attributed to the Afghan mujahideen, who were supported by many parties, including Osama bin Laden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen

A wealthy Saudi named Osama bin Laden was a prominent mujahideen organizer and financier; his Maktab al-Khadamat (MAK) (Office of Services) funnelled money, arms, and Muslim fighters from around the world into Afghanistan, with the assistance and support of the American, Pakistani, and Saudi governments. In 1988, bin Laden broke away from the MAK.

Another actor is this matter is Adnan Khashoggi, who along with people like Oliver North, George H. W. Bush, Ronald Reagan are implicated in the Iran-Contra scandal - http://www.nndb.com/group/815/000044683/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra

http://www.rotten.com/library/history/political-scandal/iran-contra/

(I don't vouch for the accuracy of these websites, but Wiki is usually considered reasonably accurate)

In late 2001, Pentagon officials acknowledged that some of the 2,000 missiles sent to Afghan fighters during the 1980s might have fallen into the hands of Taliban or Al-Qaeda fighters.

from http://www.payvand.com/news/05/feb/1000.html

Afghan authorities are launching a new push to persuade people to hand in Stinger missiles dating back to the war against the Soviet Union in the 1980s.

New push for Afghan disarmament

The control of US military aid in Afghanistan was not as tight as it should have been.

 

[loseyourname]

Here's a piece written by the same man talking about how the Pakistani national curriculum (his actual area of expertise, aside from nuclear physics) teaches children to be xenophobic and hateful of others, while being obedient and unquestioning of their Islamic leaders.

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2000-09/14hoodbhoy.htm

From now on the struggle for Pakistan was no longer to be shown as a victorious struggle for a Muslim homeland. Instead, it was to be depicted as the movement for an Islamic state run according to Islamic law. Even if it conflicted with reality, the heroes of the Pakistan movement - Jinnah, Iqbal, Syed Ahmed Khan - were to be projected as Islamic heroes. Furthermore all subjects, including the sciences, were to be speedily Islamized.

National Bureau of Curriculum and Textbooks Federal Ministry of Education, 1995.

At the completion of Class-V, the child should be able to:

"Demonstrate by actions a belief in the fear of Allah."

"Make speeches on Jehad and Shahadat"

"Understand Hindu-Muslim differences and the resultant need for Pakistan."

"India's evil designs against Pakistan."

"Collect pictures of policemen, soldiers, and National Guards"

Looks like this goes on all over the Muslim world. Note that he doesn't implicate anybody but Pakistan itself here. No blaming the US.

 

[GENIERE]

It's threads like this that make me miss Zero's influence.

Yikes! Kat I suggest some alcohol therapy. I’ll stick with Evo.

She did, however, delete a really good joke I posted. It would not have offended more than 1 or 2 billion people.

...

 

[Evo]

It's threads like this that make me miss Zero's influence. Despite my mutterings about his biased "mentoring" he would have never let this thread get so out of hand.
Evo is far gentler and far more polite, which unfortunately in instances like this I don't think work towards improving this particular forum.
Quite frankly, I think the majority of postings on the last several pages should be deleted allowing for this thread to get back on topic minus the b.s.

Yes, I should have ignored Smoking Man, I am guilty of derailing the thread in hopes he would understand that he didn't understand. Deleting and steering the thread back.

Zero locked threads alot, didn't he?

She did, however, delete a really good joke I posted. It would not have offended more than 1 or 2 billion people.

Well, I left it up until the threats started coming in if I didn't delete it. I thought it was funny, if taken the right way.

 

[Evo]

EVO

One last post and I am out of this forum permanently.

Universities do not endorse anything on their web sites, or anywhere else, not even statements made or published by their own faculty.

Universities primarily endorse legal matters, building and expansion projects and enrollment procedures ect. Some divisions of universities, especially health departments, endorse medical plans and programs such as safe sex.

For you neo cons: someday you will have to face the truth about what this country has done to others.

edward, I do owe you an apology for not checking if there was some reason your link was in African studies.

 

[Astronuc]

Regarding certain personal attacks upon Evo (the one to which I refer was removed, and rightfully so), it is really unfair to Evo, especially when in the immediately preceding post (1 hr earlier):

edward, I do owe you an apology for not checking if there was some reason your link was in African studies.

Evo is quite correct - just because something is posted on a website, that does not constitute endorsement per se, unless it pertains to business of the university, or it's academic and related programs.

Unfortunately, it took some time to verify that the citation was a paper in a conference held at the university.

Even, so Universities and other institutions often offer disclaimers regarding papers presented by outside parties.
----------------------------------

Re: the personal attacks. Come on folks, be nice and stop attacking the posters - one should respond (and be critical) to the posts. And provide evidence to support one's position.

It is most appropriate to contact a SuperMentor by PM, and not by personal attack in a forum.

----------------------------------

As for the OP, yes the US has historically had major problems in its foreign policy (so has every other nation, IMO). In this case, supplying textbooks of highly questionable content ( a fact mentioned in many other sources besides the Washington Post ). While it is entirely probable, given the number and distribution of these textbooks, that some of those students are now part of the "jihad", no direct evidence has been forthcoming.

Certainly US support for mujahideen has perhaps backfired. The concern was raised almost 20 years ago in the intelligence community. The term is "blowback". Unfortunately, for various reasons, it was not addressed as effectively as should have been, and we now have the significant problem of international terrorism.

Let's all be more thoughtful about what we are posting, and more respectful of other people, even if we disagree with the other's position.

 

[solutions in a box]

kidnap and murder

Wow

This is the only thread that I have ever seen that was first kidnapped by trolls and then murderded by a monotor-mentor.

If anyone wants to know the real reason why the USA kept supporting the Taliban even after the Russians left, it was because Unocal wanted a stable government so that they could build a pipeline in Afghanistan.

just google: (Unocal Afghanistan oil pipe line)

Or just for kicks: (Cheney Afghanistan oil pipeline)

For a comprehnsive read go to the link below and its sub links:

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/q7.html


This link is endorsed by:
Uncle Jeds internet news and live fishin bait sales.

 

[GENIERE]

…If anyone wants to know the real reason why the USA kept supporting the Taliban even after the Russians left, it was because Unocal wanted a stable government so that they could build a pipeline in Afghanistan.

Yeah! It does seem silly. I would have blasted a canal through Iran.


...

 

[Burnsys]

Wow. remember the textbooks:

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:qHIXgxxP5REJ:www.columbia.edu/cu/sipa/REGIONAL/IAS/documents/hoodbhoypaper.doc+american+textbooks+afghanistan+russia&hl=en

The speed of a Kalashnikov bullet is 800 meters per second. If a Russian is at a distance of 3200 meters from a mujahid, and that mujahid aims at the Russian’s head, calculate how many seconds it will take for the bullet to strike the Russian in the forehead

The quotes above are taken from children’s textbooks published under a $50 million grant from the United States Agency for International Development that ran from September 1986 through June 1994 and was administered by the University of Nebraska at Omaha. According to Craig Davis, the UNO program staff chose to ignore the images of Islamic militancy in the children’s textbooks for the first five years of the program because “the University of Nebraska did not wish to be seen imposing American values on Afghan educators”.

University of Nebraska at Omaha was teaching kids about speed of kalashnicov bullets and how to kill rusians with the cia money (United States Agency for International Development)

Well they also teach afghans to build pipelines with Unocal money

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa48119.000/hfa48119_0.HTM
Next we would like to hear from Mr. John J. Maresca, vice president of international relations, Unocal Corporation. You may proceed as you wish.

Mr. Chairman, as you know, we have worked very closely with the University of Nebraska at Omaha in developing a training program for Afghanistan which will be open to both men and women, and which will operate in both parts of the country, the north and south.

-------------
http://www.publicintegrity.org/wow/bio.aspx?act=pro&ddlC=61

Unocal hoped to facilitate a business relationship with the Taliban in order to promote a natural gas pipeline project. The company was the development manager for the seven-member Central Asia Gas pipeline consortium that also included Saudi Arabia's Delta Oil, Indonesia Petroleum, three other companies and the Turkmenistan government.

Unocal offered the University of Nebraska at Omaha an up-to-two-year contract worth as much $1.8 million to train Afghan men to build pipeline, which would run from Turkmenistan through a Taliban-controlled portion of Afghanistan to Pakistan, where it would be marketed. The pipeline could also be extended into India.

 

[solutions in a box]

more than I wanted to know about big oil

The following link took me totally by surprize. Not so much for it's content but because of the venue it appears in. The article, originaly from the Asian Times, in this link is published in "Alexander's Gas and Oil Connection"
Alexander's is a trade journal for the oil industry and based in Europe. It primarily deals with information and technology pertaining to the Oil and gas industry.

My God if this is what is really happening in Afghanistan we have been lied to by our own government for over 20 years.

Even worse, I hate to think that this is what the rest of the world thinks of us. Other countries and many large companies are involved. But it appears that the USA is the ringleader.

I woud actually be very pleased if someone can disprove this informaton with a credible link. I can not seem to find one.

http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/features/fex20867.htm

 

[The Smoking Man]

The following link took me totally by surprize. Not so much for it's content but because of the venue it appears in. The article, originaly from the Asian Times, in this link is published in "Alexander's Gas and Oil Connection"
Alexander's is a trade journal for the oil industry and based in Europe. It primarily deals with information and technology pertaining to the Oil and gas industry.

My God if this is what is really happening in Afghanistan we have been lied to by our own government for over 20 years.

Even worse, I hate to think that this is what the rest of the world thinks of us. Other countries and many large companies are involved. But it appears that the USA is the ringleader.

I woud actually be very pleased if someone can disprove this informaton with a credible link. I can not seem to find one.

http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/features/fex20867.htm

This should knock you for a loop then (not to disprove but to add another shovel full to what you already know):

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraq.html


Also: This link is endorsed by:
Uncle Jeds internet news and live fishin bait sales.

 

[Mercator]

I'm amazed that this can still amaze people.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I'm amazed that this can still amaze people.

Don't you feel kinda sorry? ... Like he just found out there was no Santa or Easter Bunny?

Oh, by the way ... Did you hear about the TOOTH FAIRY!?

 

[Mercator]

Don't you feel kinda sorry? ... Like he just found out there was no Santa or Easter Bunny?

Oh, by the way ... Did you hear about the TOOTH FAIRY!?

Vampireeza Rice?

 

[solutions in a box]

Amazed by nothing

Mercator TSM

If you would bother to read the post you would realize that I said that I was amazed that ths type of info would appear in a prominent international trade journal.

How many kids have to die for big oil companies before you guys wake up and act like responsible adults?

post only a number please.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Mercator TSM

If you would bother to read the post you would realize that I said that I was amazed that ths type of info would appear in a prominent international trade journal.

How many kids have to die for big oil companies before you guys wake up and act like responsible adults?

post only a number please.

LOL.

I have re-read your post and stand by my interpretation of what you said.

Your expression of surprise followed by

My God if this is what is really happening in Afghanistan we have been lied to by our own government for over 20 years.

Even worse, I hate to think that this is what the rest of the world thinks of us. Other countries and many large companies are involved. But it appears that the USA is the ringleader.

led me to believe you had heard none of this before. Your subsequent plea,

I woud actually be very pleased if someone can disprove this informaton with a credible link. I can not seem to find one.

made it seem like you were wanting to deny it.

If we have misunderstood waht you were saying ... well I can only apologize for seeing it in my way.

 

[vanesch]

A straight answer to a straight question: I would find it offensive. Actually, I would find it more than offensive - it would be totally unacceptable and I would refuse to send my children to school. Children get subjected to enough damaging propaganda in the school system as it is.

I think you people are over-estimating the political agenda behind these "let's kill an atheist" schoolbook material. Now, this is only my opinion, based upon analoguous situations elsewhere, but I think that these Afghan schoolbooks are simply the result of highbrow research in "science of education". I'm sure that, before writing up those books, some great experts in science of education went to study the mental world of the future apprentice, and saw a lot of 8 year old kids with guns, counting their bullets, and saying that they wanted to become great mudjahedeen killing Russian heathen hounds.
In order to facilitate the internalisation of knowledge, and to attach abstract concepts to everyday world ideas, these experts then changed the vocabulary in existing teaching sequences in order to adapt the teachings to the local population and their perception of the world.
So they changed a typical Florida teaching book:
"8 chicks with big boobs are lying on the beach ; Joe comes along and gets laid with 3 of them at the same time, so how many chicks can Jack try to convince to have a party with ?"
into:
"8 Russian hounds are sitting in a tent, Mohammed shoots 3 of them, so how many can Rachid still try to shoot ?"

But the abstract concept to be interiorated is still the same:
8 - 3 = 5.

The wordings are only adapted to the concrete conceptual world of the apprentice, which changes.

See, no political agenda, just science of education

 

[The Smoking Man]

I think you people are over-estimating the political agenda behind these "let's kill an atheist" schoolbook material. Now, this is only my opinion, based upon analoguous situations elsewhere, but I think that these Afghan schoolbooks are simply the result of highbrow research in "science of education". I'm sure that, before writing up those books, some great experts in science of education went to study the mental world of the future apprentice, and saw a lot of 8 year old kids with guns, counting their bullets, and saying that they wanted to become great mudjahedeen killing Russian heathen hounds.
In order to facilitate the internalisation of knowledge, and to attach abstract concepts to everyday world ideas, these experts then changed the vocabulary in existing teaching sequences in order to adapt the teachings to the local population and their perception of the world.
So they changed a typical Florida teaching book:
"8 chicks with big boobs are lying on the beach ; Joe comes along and gets laid with 3 of them at the same time, so how many chicks can Jack try to convince to have a party with ?"
into:
"8 Russian hounds are sitting in a tent, Mohammed shoots 3 of them, so how many can Rachid still try to shoot ?"

But the abstract concept to be interiorated is still the same:
8 - 3 = 5.

The wordings are only adapted to the concrete conceptual world of the apprentice, which changes.

See, no political agenda, just science of education

If you get an 'A' you are Mujahadeen.

If you get an 'F' you are a suicide bomber?

 

[vanesch]

If you get an 'A' you are Mujahadeen.

If you get an 'F' you are a suicide bomber?

Exactly ! Apple figured that one out long ago And if you get 5 "mujahedeen" stamps in a row, you get a picture of Ben Laden

Education is all just a matter of making contact with the conceptual world the apprentice lives in

 

[Art]

Exactly ! Apple figured that one out long ago And if you get 5 "mujahedeen" stamps in a row, you get a picture of Ben Laden

Education is all just a matter of making contact with the conceptual world the apprentice lives in

So in Texas instead of 10 Green Bottles... the children sing;

One oil barrel sitting on a wall
One oil barrel sitting on a wall
And if 1 muslim country should accidently fall
There'll be 2 oil barrels sitting on the wall

 

[Mercator]

Mercator TSM

If you would bother to read the post you would realize that I said that I was amazed that ths type of info would appear in a prominent international trade journal.

How many kids have to die for big oil companies before you guys wake up and act like responsible adults?

post only a number please.

Cool down. Alexander's is part of my daily reading fodder. If you look in the archives you will find many more pearls you never knew existed. If you would, like me, work in the industry and follow what's happening in the energy sector, you would not be surprised to find that most of the big world events are linked to it. Talk to any honest man working in the petro/petrochemical business (s***, THAT's and oxymoron) and ask him who in the industry did NOT know that Iraq as well as Afghanistan is all about oil, they wiil laugh in your face. They are all cynics, laughing behind the backs of people believing that there are "higher" motives behind the events in the ME and Eurasia.

But to answer your question: 0 . My tolerance was exhausted long time ago. Yes, I'm a cynic in my own way. But now and then I kick b***s and only of the ones on top of me, if you know what I mean. No political motivation or such, just a small retribution for all the dirt I have seen in my life. And guess what, I enjoy it!
Now tell me, what is YOUR number? How many kids have to die for you to stop playing innocent?

 

[solutions in a box]

Innocents long lost

Mercator:

Great post:

Thanks for a straight forward reply. I actually think I needed that.

I also have many links from Alexanders and dozens of others saved.

I lost my innocents as it applies to the world, at age 19 in Vietnam, where I was involved in "operaton Phoenix".

My view of the world changed forever. The world situation hasn't changed at all.

My number of is also 0.

I think I just came here to vent my frustration.

 

[Rev Prez]

The current "jihad" is somewhat amorphous - because it involves a broad network of groups.

A characterization that held four, ten and even twenty years ago. In short, the "current" jihad looks a lot like the old one: a significant terrorist body politic related to smaller, autonomous organizations through little more than common cause and the more than occasional recycling of personnel. There is a slight difference in technical means available to terrorists, and in an extreme domain a frightening increase in lethality, but for the most part it's still a few thousand largely intrastate or transnational yokels with conventional explosives and cheap small arms from the former Eastern block and China.

Rev Prez

 

[vanesch]

Talk to any honest man working in the petro/petrochemical business (s***, THAT's and oxymoron) and ask him who in the industry did NOT know that Iraq as well as Afghanistan is all about oil, they wiil laugh in your face.

Oh, I'd say that if you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I think these oil people take themselves for more important and influencial than they really are, and no, Iraq and Afghanistan were not ALL about oil. It was a factor, but far from the only one. Hey, what happened to the nuclear sector ? Those people were once said to be the players behind the scenes for almost everything that happened, and now the field is almost non-existing (I know, I'm part of it).

 

[loseyourname]

In many parts of the world, water is the single most politically significant commodity, and it will only become more so as populations continue to grow, especially in fast-growing areas like Phoenix, Las Vegas, and Orange County, that exist in deserts. Unlike oil, we cannot simply make the problem go away by switching to alternatives, either. You can't just start drinking methanol instead.

 

[Art]

In many parts of the world, water is the single most politically significant commodity, and it will only become more so as populations continue to grow, especially in fast-growing areas like Phoenix, Las Vegas, and Orange County, that exist in deserts. Unlike oil, we cannot simply make the problem go away by switching to alternatives, either. You can't just start drinking methanol instead.

If you start drinking methanol it will definitely make the problem go away: permanently. lol

 

[The Smoking Man]

You can't just start drinking methanol instead.

Shpeak for yershelf

It is funny but now that you bring it up, agencies and organizations like One World for example have been putting the stress on water for decades now. They have even been instrumentat in attempting to place water as a 'basic human right'. (http://southasia.oneworld.net/article/view/115220/1/ )

What many first world countries mistakenly think is that they need oil and industrialization to make them truly happy.

I first became aware of the problem about twenty years ago when I watched a program by Dr. David Suzuki who was filming in Mexico.

In this particular piece he was standing in the corner a dry arid field that met three other corners of three other fields below a hill.

He explained that just over the hill was a farm surrounded by a chain link fence where he had been forbidden to film by local authorities and the owner of the land ... the Dole corporation.

It seems the farms he now stood on were now abandoned because the local farmers had no water to irrigate their crops and they had been forbidden by local ordinance from digging deeper wells.

Over the hill, the Dole corporation had set up a pinapple farm and had sunk wells that sucked so much water out of the ground they had effected the water table.

The four families were now living in Mexico City.

Here is some more news on Coke apparently some Universities DO issue endorsements.

Our man from Del Monte also sleazes around in ajoining fields to Dole, http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2096/.

 

[Mercator]

Oh, I'd say that if you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I think these oil people take themselves for more important and influencial than they really are, and no, Iraq and Afghanistan were not ALL about oil. It was a factor, but far from the only one. Hey, what happened to the nuclear sector ? Those people were once said to be the players behind the scenes for almost everything that happened, and now the field is almost non-existing (I know, I'm part of it).

Let's say energy sector.