Thermal Radiation: Calc Total Emitted Joules in Certain Temp Range

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating the total emitted joules of thermal radiation from an object within a certain temperature range. Participants explore various formulas and concepts related to thermal radiation, including the Stefan-Boltzmann law and the implications of changing temperatures over time.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the Stefan-Boltzmann law for calculating emitted power and seeks a method to determine total emitted joules over a temperature range.
  • Another participant suggests using the formula M*c*ΔT, questioning its applicability in the context of thermal emittance.
  • Concerns are raised about the conditions under which the calculations are made, particularly regarding the presence of other objects and the implications for absorption and emission of radiation.
  • Several participants discuss the need for clarity in the original question, particularly regarding the definition of the system and the nature of temperature changes.
  • A participant proposes using an integral to calculate total energy emitted when temperature is not constant, indicating the need for a function T(t) to perform the calculation.
  • There is a discussion about the relationship between emitted heat and temperature change, with some participants expressing confusion about the relevance of certain formulas in the context of the original question.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best approach to calculate total emitted joules, with multiple competing views and methods proposed. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific conditions and definitions necessary for accurate calculations.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the original question, such as the lack of specificity regarding the system being analyzed and the conditions under which thermal radiation is considered. The discussion reflects a range of assumptions about temperature behavior and the influence of surrounding objects.

  • #31
PeterDonis said:
Differentiation is not an algebraic operation; you can't just "divide by dt", you have to have functions of t on both sides that you are differentiating.

I have not done this - You can look at this in two ways - Q = m*c*ΔT and then I differentiate with respect to t ,
or , for small change in temperature , dQ = m*c*dT , and now I just simply divide both sides by dt .

PeterDonis said:
In the original equation, you don't; you have ΔT\Delta T on the RHS, not TT. ΔT\Delta T is not temperature as a function of time; it's the change in temperature between two states of the object that you happen to be interested in. That's not a function of time, and you can't differentiate it with respect to time.

Yes , I made a mistake here . You could use this only for small temperature difference in T and T0 . Sorry .
 
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  • #32
PytrTchaikovsky said:
It could be, where did you get that formula from? However, I think that the area of the object will matter, so I think that should be included.

A molecule of an object , loses heat on fall in temperature . So , greater number of molecules , greater heat lost .

Also , greater the loss in temperature , greater the loss of heat .

∴ heat lost depends on physical dimensions , density ,and temperature .

Physical dimensions and density together are replaced by m and ,
ΔQ ∝ m ;
ΔQ ∝ ΔT .

∴ΔQ = c*m*ΔT with c the constant of proportionality and equal to specific heat capacity .
 
  • #33
Qwertywerty said:
Q = m*c*ΔT and then I differentiate with respect to t

But, as you go on to note, you can't do this unless ##\Delta T## is infinitesimal, i.e., unless you really have ##dQ## and ##dT##. You can't differentiate ##\Delta T## by ##t## because it isn't a function of ##t## (##T## is, but ##\Delta T## is not).

Qwertywerty said:
for small change in temperature , dQ = m*c*dT , and now I just simply divide both sides by dt

This is the equivalent of differentiating by ##t##, because ##dQ## and ##dT## are both infinitesimals (strictly speaking, you would take the limit as ##dt \rightarrow 0##).

Also, this only works if both ##m## and ##c## are constant. Constant ##m## is no problem, but constant ##c## is; most substances have a heat capacity that changes with temperature. So the full formula would have to be

$$
\frac{dQ}{dt} = m c \frac{dT}{dt} + m T \frac{dc}{dT} \frac{dT}{dt} = m \frac{dT}{dt} \left( c + T \frac{dc}{dT} \right)
$$

Finally, as I said before, this formula doesn't help unless you already know ##T## as a function of ##t## (and ##c## as a function of ##T##, if it's not constant). In the scenario under discussion in this thread, we don't.
 

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