Thermodyamics, total differentials and integration.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of enthalpy for an acoustic medium, focusing on the use of total differentials and integration in thermodynamics. Participants explore the transformation of infinitesimal quantities into non-infinitesimal forms, particularly in the context of entropy and its dependence on various state variables.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Stephen presents a derivation of enthalpy and expresses confusion regarding the transformation of the term involving entropy and temperature from infinitesimal to non-infinitesimal form.
  • Some participants suggest that the last term involving entropy should be integrated over a range rather than left in infinitesimal form.
  • There is mention of using a Maclaurin series to avoid the complexities of infinitesimals, with some participants questioning the rigor of infinitesimal notation.
  • One participant introduces the idea of an equation of state, likening the situation to the ideal gas law.
  • Another participant references Euler's theorem for homogeneous functions as potentially relevant to the problem.
  • Stephen asserts the correctness of the formulae from his textbook, citing a similar derivation as evidence of its validity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach consensus on the treatment of the last term involving entropy. Some agree with Stephen's textbook approach, while others challenge the handling of the infinitesimal notation and propose alternative methods. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the correct integration approach.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the material in question is anisotropic, which may influence the derivation but is not expected to drastically affect the outcome. There is also a reference to the age of the textbook being used, which may impact the relevance of its methods.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for graduate students and researchers in acoustics, thermodynamics, and related fields, particularly those interested in the mathematical treatment of thermodynamic properties and the application of differential calculus in physics.

stephen_E
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Hi everyone! I am a UK grad student working in acoustics. My own background is in EE, so i am largely self taught in thermodynamics. Consequently id really appreciate any insight any of you real physicists can give me with my problem!

Following derivations in books i can derive the enthalpy, H_{A}, of an acoustic medium to be as follows (S is strain, T is stress, D and E are electric filed and electric displacement,B and H are magnetic field, \theta is temperature and \sigma is entropy. Furthermore, the problem is assumed to be adiabatic.

H_{A} &= U -(ST)-(ED)-(BH)
(where dU = dW + dQ = T_{i}dS_{i} + E_{i}dD_{i} + H_{i}dB_{i} + \theta d\sigma), therefore:
dH_{A} &= - S_{i}dT_{i} - D_{m}dE_{m} - B_{m}dH_{m} + \theta d\sigma

so:
S_{i}=\frac{-\partial{H_{A}}}{\partial{T_{i}}}
etc etc for the other non infinitesimal quantities etc.

My problem comes when I expand Si and the other non-state variables from dH_A individually into total differentials ie

dS_{i} &=(\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{T_{i}}})_{E,H,\sigma}dT_{i} + (\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{E_{m}}})_{H,\sigma}dE_{m} + (\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{H_{m}}})_{H,E}dH_{m} + (\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{\sigma}})_{H,E}d\sigma

I need to convert this expression into a non-infinitesimal form, ie so the LHS is S and not ds. I know the correct answer from my textbook is:

S_{i} &=(\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{T_{i}}})_{E,H,\sigma}T_{i} + (\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{E_{m}}})_{H,\sigma}E_{m} + (\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{H_{m}}})_{H,E}H_{m} + (\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{\sigma}})_{H,E}d\sigma

However I don't see how to obtain this and the book glosses over the details of how to do this! Obviously I need to perform some kind of integration here, but how do I do this?! The thing that is throwing me is that last term involving entropy and temperature. I can see how to integrate this for terms T,E and H ie a term of the form
(\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{T_{i}}})_{E,H,\sigma}dT_{i}
converts to (\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{T_{i}}})_{E,H,\sigma}T_{i}.

Can someone explain to me the significance of (\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{\sigma}})_{H,E}d\sigma since this term doesn't seem to transform in the same fashion?

Also: Should i ditch the infinitesimal notation for S? At least one book I've seen assumes S is a function of the form S(T,E,H,\sigma) and expands this function using a Maclaurin series: this seems to avoid the tricky infinitesimal quantities. Is this a better approach? Generally, using infinitesimals in calculus seems to be a bit of a minefield, as they are not very rigorous.

Thanks!
-=+Stephen Ellwood+=-
Ultrasound Research Group, Leeds University, UK
 
Science news on Phys.org
Just thought i should add one more detail: the subscript indices here are related to the fact that the material this derivation refers to is anisotropic - ie properties vary in different directions.

However this shouldn't drastically effect the outcome here.
 
stephen_E said:
I know the correct answer from my textbook is:

S_{i} &=(\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{T_{i}}})_{E,H,\sigma}T_{i} + (\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{E_{m}}})_{H,\sigma}E_{m} + (\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{H_{m}}})_{H,E}H_{m} + (\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{\sigma}})_{H,E}d\sigma

I'm with you up to here, but this can't be correct; you can't integrate and be left with d\sigma. Shouldn't the last term be

\int^{\sigma_2}_{\sigma_1} \left(\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{\sigma}}\right)_{H,E,T}d\sigma\,\mathrm{?}

It seems like you could move forward by expanding as

\left(\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{\sigma}}\right)=\left(\frac{\partial{S_{i}}}{\partial{\theta}}\right)\left(\frac{\partial \theta}{\partial{\sigma}}\right)

where the first quantity is related to thermal expansion and the second to heat capacity. Does this help?
 
I haven't the foggiest idea really - my feeling is that an equation of state is being used - like PV=nRT for an ideal gas. Perhaps some context may help? What are the titles of the book and chapter? What is the final goal of the derivation?
 
Euler's theorem for homogeneous functions is used here, see here for a similar problem:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=253781

Note that you should call H the magnetization (commonly denoted by M), E the electric polarization (commonly denoted by P).
 
Hi guys I can confirm that the formulae I have given are correct; there is another derivation in the same book where the guy uses a very similar approach but this time on an isothermal not adiabatic problem.

I'm assuming that he wouldn't make the same mistake twice; furthermore if you can't preform the step I've outlined here you cannot prove the fundamental equations of piezoelectricity which would be a major showstopper!

The book in question is "Principles of Acoustics" Volume IA, edited by Warren P Mason, published by Academic Press - its very old though (c. 1950's)!

Many thanks for your reply Count Iblis, ill look into this Euler's theorem business. It sounds like it could be just the key to solving this.
 

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