Derivation of Entropy Eq - For Smart People

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of an equation for entropy, specifically focusing on its extensive properties and the application of Euler's theorem for homogeneous functions. Participants explore the relationship between entropy and other thermodynamic variables, seeking clarity on the derivation process and the underlying principles involved.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents an equation for entropy involving partial derivatives and expresses confusion about its derivation, suggesting a connection to the first law of thermodynamics.
  • Another participant explains that the equation arises from the extensive nature of entropy and proposes using a scaling factor (lambda) to derive the relationship, referencing Euler's theorem for homogeneous functions.
  • A participant questions the necessity of expanding in powers of epsilon and suggests that Euler's theorem could suffice for the derivation.
  • Further clarification is provided on how to apply Euler's theorem, detailing the expansion of the left-hand side of the equation and the process of equating coefficients to arrive at the desired result.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants demonstrate varying levels of understanding regarding the derivation process, with some expressing clarity while others remain uncertain about specific steps. No consensus is reached on the necessity of certain mathematical approaches, indicating ongoing debate.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference assumptions related to the extensive properties of thermodynamic variables and the application of mathematical theorems without fully resolving the implications of these assumptions.

qbslug
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hello smart people
I came across a weird equation for entropy and do not know how it was derived.
It looks like this

S = N(dS/dN)[V,E] + V(dS/dV)[N,E] + E(dS/dE)[N,V]

note that these technically partial derivatives

So how do you derive this equation. I am assuming you start with the first law of thermodynamics but I am confused how they got this result.
 
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Actually, this follows from the fact that S is an extensive quantity: it scales with system size if you keep the intensive vsriables (temperature, pressure etc.) constant. The internal energy, volume and number of particles are, of course, also extensive variables.

Let's see what happens if we specify a system by the variables E, V, and N, and then increase the system size by a factor lambda. The entropy must increase by lambda too:

S(\lambda E, \lambda V,\lambda N) = \lambda S(E, V, N)

Suppose we put:

\lambda= 1 +\epsilon

and expand both sides in powers of epsilon. Then equating the coefficient of epsilon on both sides gives you the desired equation. This is Euler's theorem for homogeneous functions (a special case of it).

You can then use the fundamental thermodynamic relation:

dE = T dS - P dV + \mu dN

To express the partial derivatives in terms of the temperature, pressure and chamical potential.
 
Thanks for your input. I t makes more sense.
But what do you mean by expand in powers of epsilon and why do you need to replace lambda with 1+epsilon?
Can't you just use euler's theorem of homogeneous functions and be done.
I wasn't aware of euler's theorem so no wonder I was lost.
 
That's how you derive Euler's theorem. We have:

S\left(\lambda E, \lambda V,\lambda N\right) = \lambda S(E, V, N)

Putting lambda = 1 + epsilon and expanding to first order in epsilon gives for the left hand side:

S\left[(1+\epsilon) E, (1+\epsilon) V,(1+\epsilon) N\right] =<br /> S\left(E, V,N\right) + \epsilon\left[E\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial E}\right)_{V,N} + V\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial V}\right)_{E,N}+N\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial N}\right)_{E,V}\right]<br />


On the right hand side you have:

S(E, V, N) + \epsilon S(E, V, N)

If you equate the coefficient of epsilon on both sides you get:

S(E, V, N) =E\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial E}\right)_{V,N} + V\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial V}\right)_{E,N}+N\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial N}\right)_{E,V}
 

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