Thermodynamic entropy of system of any size.

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of the bit-entropy of a thermodynamic system, particularly focusing on a system at thermal equilibrium, modeled as an ideal monatomic gas. Participants explore the implications of the derived formula, its comparison to established equations like the Sackur-Tetrode equation, and the relevance of quantum mechanics in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a formula for the entropy of a thermodynamic system based on information-theoretic arguments, asserting it applies to any system size, including single particles.
  • The formula is expressed as S = (Q/T)[(log(T/T0) - 1) + (log(V/V0) - 1) + log(Q/T)], with further simplification proposed.
  • Another participant references the Sackur-Tetrode equation, noting it relies on quantum mechanical principles, while the original formula does not, suggesting they may not be directly comparable.
  • There is a discussion about the historical context of the Sackur-Tetrode equation, with one participant asserting it was derived within classical mechanics, while another argues it requires Planck's constant and thus relates to quantum mechanics.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of the derived formula regarding the third law of thermodynamics, particularly the assertion that entropy is not zero at absolute zero.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between the derived formula and the Sackur-Tetrode equation, as well as the implications of the third law of thermodynamics. There is no consensus on the correctness of the formula or its comparison to established theories.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the dependence of the discussion on assumptions regarding the nature of the system (ideal gas, thermal equilibrium) and the potential limitations of the derived formula in relation to quantum mechanics and classical mechanics.

IttyBittyBit
Messages
160
Reaction score
0
After a bit of calculation, I came up with the following quantity for the bit-entropy of a thermodynamic system.

We have the following assumptions:

1. System at thermal equilibrium.
2. Ideal gas.
3. Monatomic gas (i.e. no internal degrees of freedom for particles).
4. All particles have equal mass.
5. Units are such that k_B (boltzmann constant) normalized to 1.

Using just information-theoretic arguments (no assumptions from thermodynamics!) I calculated the raw entropy of such a system to be:

S = (Q/T)[(log(T/T0) - 1) + (log(V/V0) - 1) + log(Q/T)]

(T=temperature, Q=thermal energy, V=volume of system, T0,V0=unknown normalizing constants).

This can be simplified to:

S = (Q/T)[log(Q/T0) + log(V/V0) - 2]

Further, I suspect it works for any system size, even systems that wouldn't be called 'ensembles' in the thermodynamic sense (like just a single particle, in which case Q=0. In general, we take Q = total energy - kinetic energy of center of mass of system).

In addition, we find that dS is proportional to dQ/T (i.e. Clausius law of entropy), in the limit where Q >> T (which is always true in thermodynamic ensembles) and volume is held constant.

Yet another interesting thing about this is that the entropy is not zero at the limit of T=0 (because then Q=0 too). Thus it appears the third law of thermodynamics need not apply from a purely information-theoretic standpoint.

Is my formula correct?
 
Last edited:
Science news on Phys.org
Thanks for that link, I didn't know about that. I was just trying to satisfy my own curiosity.

The Sackur-Tetrode equation appears only to work under the assumption of the uncertainty principle, whereas I derived my formula without any QM assumptions. Therefore I don't think they can be directly compared. However, this part:

He showed it to consist of stacking the entropy (missing information) due to four terms: positional uncertainty, momenta uncertainty, quantum mechanical uncertainty principle and the indistinguishability of the particles

It very similar to my own method (except for the QM part obviously).
 
Last edited:
If I am not wrong, Sakur and Tetrode derived their formula in a classical mechanics context (in 1912 QM was not yet discovered), i.e. without involving the uncertainty principle.
 
No, the Sackur-Tetrode equation requires Planck's constant, which was of course discovered in 1899.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas :

It remained for quantum mechanics to introduce a reasonable value for the value of Φ which yields the Sackur-Tetrode equation for the entropy of an ideal gas. It too suffers from a divergent entropy at absolute zero, but is a good approximation to an ideal gas over a large range of densities.

Φ is really just a convoluted way of introducing HUP. It's kind of interesting in itself that the HUP was already 'realized' 15 years before Heisenberg published his paper.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
988
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
Replies
10
Views
4K
  • · Replies 45 ·
2
Replies
45
Views
6K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K