Thermodynamics Gases: Final Temp, Work, Internal Energy, Q

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a thermodynamics problem involving the compression of air, where participants seek to determine the final temperature, work done, change in internal energy, and heat transfer (Q) during the process. The scope includes theoretical understanding and application of thermodynamic principles, particularly focusing on isothermal and adiabatic processes.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses uncertainty about whether the compression process is isothermal or adiabatic, indicating a lack of clarity on how to approach the problem.
  • Another participant questions the validity of asking for the final temperature in an isothermal process.
  • It is suggested that the problem likely assumes an adiabatic and reversible compression, although this is not explicitly stated in the problem.
  • Participants discuss the ideal gas law and the first law of thermodynamics, with some expressing confusion about the equations relevant to the problem.
  • There is a discussion on how to calculate the number of moles (n) of air using the ideal gas law, with one participant suggesting to use initial conditions to find n.
  • Multiple formulas for calculating work are presented, with participants debating which equations are appropriate for the scenario.
  • Questions arise regarding the use of specific gas constants and whether to apply them to initial or final conditions.
  • One participant raises concerns about how to handle mass when the problem specifies a weight (e.g., "1 lb of air") and how to convert between mass and moles.
  • Another participant explains how to convert grams to gram-moles using molecular weight, specifically addressing the composition of air as a mixture of gases.
  • There is a request for clarification on the proportions of gases in air, with a later reply providing specific mole percentages for oxygen and nitrogen.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the nature of the thermodynamic process (isothermal vs. adiabatic) and the appropriate equations to use, indicating that there is no consensus on these aspects. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to solve the problem.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention limitations in their understanding of thermodynamic principles and the lack of clarity in the problem statement. There are also unresolved questions about the conversion of mass units and the implications of using different gas constants.

Mrencko
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Homework Statement


two cubic ft, of air at 85 f and 13.9 psi, compress to 115 psi.
What is the final temp, the work, the internal energy "delta u", and Q

Homework Equations


well i don't have any equations, i am asking for the equations

The Attempt at a Solution


i don't know how to approach to this problem because i don't know if this is
Isothermal
or adiabatic process,
i am sufing the web, but there is a ton of equations out there and i feel overwhelmed about it, so i coul use some help to make a solid base to start in thermodynamics
 
Last edited:
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Isobaric means "at constant pressure" - can you compress something in an isobaric process?
 
sorry i made a mistake it was
Isothermal
 
If it was isothermal - does it make sense to ask about the final temperature?
 
Mrencko said:

Homework Equations


well i don't have any equations, i am asking for the equations
I think they meant for you to assume that the compression is adiabatic and reversible, although this certainly isn't clear from the problem statement. Have you learned the equation for the first law of thermodynamics? If so, why didn't you list that as one of your equations? What about the ideal gas law; did you not learn about that?
 
Yes i know these equations, the ideal gas is pv=nrt and firts law of thermpfynamics its w= Q-internal energy
 
you are right, it was so obvious, sorry its adiabatic because everything changes
how i should use this kind of info "one lb of air"? i don't see any weight or mass unit in equations, just "n" but if its air how i can know the moles of "air" i can if its two gases or one, for this problem i made the calculatins to find temperature final, and volume final, but i am stuck at the work calculation i have all exept the "n"

i convert all to non english units

V1=58.6337 lt
T1=302 k
P1=0.9458389 ATM
P2=7.8252 ATM
equations***
P1V1γ=P2V2γ
T1V1γ-1=T2V2γ-1

using that i found****
T2=552.34039 K
V2=12.9617 LT
now i just need the W and internal energy because the problem ask for Q but in adiabatic Q=0 so i need a litle litle help

i have this formulas for work***

W=-ncvλT→W=-ncv(T2-T1)
W=-(Cv)/(R)(P2V2-P1V1)
whic one its correct? and how i can know n?
 
Last edited:
To get n, use PV=nRT together with the initial conditions.
 
Mrencko said:
i have this formulas for work***

W=-ncvλT→W=-ncv(T2-T1)
W=-(Cv)/(R)(P2V2-P1V1)
whic one its correct?
Both equations are correct, and both should give the same answer.
 
  • #10
should i use R=(0.0820574)ltatm/kmol?
and what p and v, should work for p1v1=nRT1 and for p2v2=nRT2, i mean those two equations are valids or just whit initial valules, also if W=-internal energy any value of work its equal to a loss of internal energy and there is no need to calculate it_? also another question what if the problem says "1 lb of air" how i should consider the mass in equations?
 
Last edited:
  • #11
Mrencko said:
should i use R=(0.0820574)ltatm/kmol?
I'll leave it to you to work this out, considering the units that are needed.
and what p and v, should work for p1v1=nRT1 and for p2v2=nRT2, i mean those two equations are valids or just whit initial valules,
Try both equations, and see what you get.
also if W=-internal energy any value of work its equal to a loss of internal energy and there is no need to calculate it_?
The first equation you gave actually is that change in internal energy.
also another question what if the problem says "1 lb of air" how i should consider the mass in equations?
I don't understand this question. Are you asking how to convert lbs to kg, grams, or gram moles?
 
  • #12
Well my other problem are the "same" exept for the mass thing, this is an example:
"one diesel machine have 159.09 grams of air, compress from 14.7 psi to 465 psi, whith 23.8 c of initial temp and 525.55 of final temp, calculate w and Q" its the same but the grams or lb, thing i don't know how to handle in the calculations
 
  • #13
Mrencko said:
Well my other problem are the "same" exept for the mass thing, this is an example:
"one diesel machine have 159.09 grams of air, compress from 14.7 psi to 465 psi, whith 23.8 c of initial temp and 525.55 of final temp, calculate w and Q" its the same but the grams or lb, thing i don't know how to handle in the calculations
You don't know how to convert from grans to gram-moles, correct? The molecular weight of a material is equal to the number of grams per gram mole of material. So, to convert from grams to gram-moles, you divide by the molecular weight.
 
  • #14
thanks for the response, but i still have doubts, the "air its a mix" i get the idea of gramss/mols of x given gas or two, tree but what gases i should consider for air and proportions?
 
  • #15
Mrencko said:
thanks for the response, but i still have doubts, the "air its a mix" i get the idea of gramss/mols of x given gas or two, tree but what gases i should consider for air and proportions?
Use 21 mole percent for oxygen and 79 mole percent for nitrogen. This gives a molecular weight of (0.21)(32)+(0.79)(28)=29
 
  • #16
thank you very much i was really piss of about this because the teacher dint explain nothing at all, many thanks
 

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