Thermodynamics, isothermal irreversible

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a thermodynamics problem concerning the entropy change during an isothermal irreversible expansion of helium gas. The scenario involves a sample of helium with a specified mass at a given temperature and pressure, which doubles its volume against an external pressure.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the initial and final volumes of the gas using the ideal gas law, questioning how to express these volumes in terms of the mass of helium. There is also discussion about the implications of the external pressure on the work done during the expansion.

Discussion Status

Some participants have provided calculations for the initial and final volumes based on the ideal gas law, while others are considering the application of the first law of thermodynamics to analyze the change in entropy for the surroundings. There is an ongoing exploration of how to calculate the work done by the system and the heat transferred during the process.

Contextual Notes

Participants are operating under the assumption of a constant external pressure during the expansion and are discussing the implications of this assumption on the calculations. The problem context includes specific values for temperature and pressure, which are critical for the calculations being discussed.

Faiq
Messages
347
Reaction score
16

Homework Statement


Can you please show how to solve this question (I am not asking it for homework. I am asking because it would help me understand better). Determine the entropy change in sys, surr, uni, when a sample of helium has of mass M grams at 298K and 1 bar doubles its volume in isothermal irreversible expansion against external pressure =p

The complete question can be found on https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/q/84590/29265

Homework Equations

The Attempt at a Solution

 
Physics news on Phys.org
Faiq said:

Homework Statement


Can you please show how to solve this question (I am not asking it for homework. I am asking because it would help me understand better). Determine the entropy change in sys, surr, uni, when a sample of helium has of mass M grams at 298K and 1 bar doubles its volume in isothermal irreversible expansion against external pressure =p

The complete question can be found on https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/q/84590/29265

Homework Equations

The Attempt at a Solution

Based on your effort in the link you cited, we are permitted by PF rules to continue without further effort.

Let's assume temporarily that the constant external pressure p = 0.5 bars so that, if the gas pressure is suddenly dropped from 1 bar to p at time zero and the gas subsequently allowed to expand irreversibly while it re-equilibrates with the (ideal reservoir) at 298 K, the final volume will be double the initial volume. (Later we can talk about how to solve if the constant external pressure p is made less than 0.5 bars, and the gas expansion is forced to stop after doubling).

Let's begin by using the ideal gas law to determine the initial volume in terms of M. Using the value of ##R=0.08314\ \frac{liter.bar}{K.mole}##, what is the initial volume of helium in terms of M? In terms of M, what is the final volume at 0.5 bars and 298 K?

Chet
 
Initial volume = ##M*0.08314*298/4##= 6.19M liters
Final Volume = ##M*0.08314*298/2##= 12.39M liters
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Faiq said:
Initial volume = ##M*0.08314*298/4##= 6.19M liters
Final Volume = ##M*0.08314*298/2##= 12.39M liters
OK. So STATE 1 is:
0.25M moles, 298 K, 6.19M liters

STATE 2 is:
0.25M moles, 298 K, 12.39M liters

Before we calculate ##\Delta S## for the system, let's first apply the first law of thermodynamics to determine the change in entropy of the surroundings in this irreversible process.

For an expansion process, the equation for the work W done by the system on the surroundings is:
$$W=\int{p_{ext}dV}$$ where ##p_{ext}## is the externally applied pressure. In our irreversible process, at time zero, we suddenly drop the external pressure from 1 bar to 0.5 bars, and then hold the external pressure constant while the gas expands, until the system re-equilibrates both mechanically and thermally. So, in our process, ##p_{ext}## is constant at 0.5 bars. Based on this, what do you get for the work W done by the system on the surroundings (in terms of M, expressed in liter-bars)?

What is the change in internal energy for this "isothermal" change between STATES 1 and 2? Based on the first law, what is the amount of heat Q transferred from the surroundings to the system in our irreversible process?
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
6K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
9K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
26K