To the converted atheists: What do you miss from believing ?

[Poop-Loops]

and there is no cogent argument that can be made that god does not exist.

There doesn't have to be. The onus of proof is on the believer, not me to DISPROVE god.

I see no reason for a god.

 

[turbo]

The theists and the atheists are both arguing insupportable concepts. Unfortunately, BOTH of these camps elevate the concept of a god to a level that is paramount. One view says that god is supreme, and the other says that the existence of a supreme god is wrong. Where is the view-point of the people who say that "we don't know if any god exists, nor if that god has any powers?" I won't say that agnosticism is the only logical refuge for intelligent persons, but I have felt that way for over 40 years.

 

[Cyrus]

But really Cyrus, if you assume that the big spaghetti disappears when you try to see it, there is just no way to know. This is not a scientific question. This does not challenge our scientific understanding, it is just irrational. This is fine.

Then the spaghetti monster is pure BS! And THATS the main problem with Turbo-1's line of thinking. Any thing, no matter how stupid, is by default true because hey, you can't disprove it. Its a silly line of reasoning that leads to know where.

Ex 2. Blue elephant. There is a blue elephant on turbo-1s shoulder. Its too small to be seen by any instrument that manking will EVER devise. This is obviously a load of crap, but according to this circular logic, I can't say its not true.

It should be obvious there is something fundamentally wrong with this logic.

 

[end3r7]

The question has many aspects. Many people we have already shown interest in the social aspects. I guess you are interested in the individiual aspects, and you should clarify that.

I don't want to soudn rude, but I must confess I have no clue what you meant by that. But I think this might help:

I'd like an afterlife as described by most religious for two reasons

1) The most important -- I get to be with people I like for eternity. And I myself exist for eternity. I like existing, I like that my friends and family exist.

2) I have more time to find things out. Or have it shown to me.

I obviously don't believe in afterlife, but when I was religious (I'm a little skpetical whether I ever truly believed in afterlife or just never thought about it) I still intensely lived the now.

 

[Poop-Loops]

The theists and the atheists are both arguing insupportable concepts. Unfortunately, BOTH of these camps elevate the concept of a god to a level that is paramount. One view says that god is supreme, and the other says that the existence of a supreme god is wrong. Where is the view-point of the people who say that "we don't know if any god exists, nor if that god has any powers?" I won't say that agnosticism is the only logical refuge for intelligent persons, but I have felt that way for over 40 years.

Looks like you've been wrong for 40 years, then.

Atheists aren't saying "God is bad" or anything like that. They are saying there is no evidence for God, therefore no point in believing in one.

Do you "believe" in something like String Theory or Quantum Loop Gravity? You'd be a fool to. You have to wait and see where it goes and look at the evidence. You don't say "Well I can't say one way or the other, therefore both views are equally valid."

 

[humanino]

Then the spaghetti monster is pure BS! And THATS the main problem with Turbo-1's line of thinking. Any thing, no matter how stupid, is by default true because hey, you can't disprove it. Its a silly line of reasoning that leads to know where.

Take spin for instance. Before it was found, very intelligent people like Pauli would claim out loud that this is simple BS.

What is it good for ? You spaghetti monster is useless to you. It might fear a kid. It is good to explain the kid that there is no spaghetti monster. The kid believes in Santa. This is good. It makes the kid thinks he should act according to Santa, that is his parents. This is manipulation, in the interest of the kid himself.

Now, when it comes to grown up adults, we will come against all sorts of social difficulties if we consider religious manipulations. This is very interesting by its own, but not what the OP is interested in (correct me if I am wrong).

Why do individual sometimes choose irrationality, even possibly against their own good ?

 

[turbo]

Then the spaghetti monster is pure BS! And THATS the main problem with Turbo-1's line of thinking. Any thing, no matter how stupid, is by default true because hey, you can't disprove it. Its a silly line of reasoning that leads to know where.

Ex 2. Blue elephant. There is a blue elephant on turbo-1s shoulder. Its too small to be seen by any instrument that manking will EVER devise. This is obviously a load of crap, but according to this circular logic, I can't say its not true.

It should be obvious there is something fundamentally wrong with this logic.

if you think that ANYTHING that cannot be disproven is logically permissible, then perhaps you need some more years at school, perhaps with a minor (at a minimum) in logic.

 

[Gokul43201]

The theists and the atheists are both arguing insupportable concepts.

No turbo. Atheists only argue that they shall not believe in any insupportable constructs.

 

[Cyrus]

Take spin for instance. Before it was found, very intelligent people like Pauli would claim out loud that this is simple BS.

What is it good for ? You spaghetti monster is useless to you. It might fear a kid. It is good to explain the kid that there is no spaghetti monster. The kid believes in Santa. This is good. It makes the kid thinks he should act according to Santa, that is his parents. This is manipulation, in the interest of the kid himself.

Now, when it comes to grown up adults, we will come against all sorts of social difficulties if we consider religious manipulations. This is very interesting by its own, but not what the OP is interested in (correct me if I am wrong).

Why do individual sometimes choose irrationality, even possibly against their own good ?

I don't see what your example with spin proves. Had spin never been found in a lab, it would remain to this day to be nothing but BS.

 

[end3r7]

Take spin for instance. Before it was found, very intelligent people like Pauli would claim out loud that this is simple BS.

What is it good for ? You spaghetti monster is useless to you. It might fear a kid. It is good to explain the kid that there is no spaghetti monster. The kid believes in Santa. This is good. It makes the kid thinks he should act according to Santa, that is his parents. This is manipulation, in the interest of the kid himself.

Now, when it comes to grown up adults, we will come against all sorts of social difficulties if we consider religious manipulations. This is very interesting by its own, but not what the OP is interested in (correct me if I am wrong).

Why do individual sometimes choose irrationality, even possibly against their own good ?

I don't think you are grasping his argument.

Take unicorns. Do you believe in unicorns? No, of course you don't. But technically you are an agnostic towards them --- you can't absolutely disprove their existence, but there is no tangible evidence for it.

The fallacy in the reasoning is purely statistical: because we can't disprove something, we need not assign it a 50% probability of existing.

 

[Cyrus]

I don't think you are grasping his argument.

Take unicorns. Do you believe in unicorns? No, of course you don't. But technically you are an agnostic towards them --- you can't absolutely disprove their existence, but there is no tangible evidence for it.

The fallacy in the reasoning is purely statistical: because we can't disprove something, we need not assign it a 50% probability of existing.

Bingo, you got it. Well said.

 

[humanino]

I don't think you are grasping his argument.

The spin example was

• to try to calm down and cool the minds : let us not call each other names. Even bright people make mistakes
• To convey that sometimes, irrationality is good

 

[turbo]

No turbo. Atheists only argue that they shall not believe in any insupportable constructs.

That's not true. Atheists argue that there is no god. Theists argue that there is a god.

Agnostics argue (correctly, I believe) that we humans can never resolve such an argument.

 

[humanino]

Bingo, you got it. Well said.

I think I got that point for a while. I did take formal logic in school.

 

[humanino]

That's not true. Atheists argue that there is not god. Theists argue that there is a god.

Agnostics argue (correctly, I believe) that we humans can never resolve such an argument.

I think you are right, and that needed to be clarified for a while. Thank you.

 

[end3r7]

I disagree with turbo-1, simply because from a scientific stand point the Null-Hypothesis, in my view, should be non-existence of a deity.

Agnostics appear to think that the null-hypothesis is "sitting on the fence". I dunno, I just find that to be less scientific, but whatever.

We hardly accuse Christians of being atheists towards Zeus, for instance. In fact, for all purposes, any religious person is just as atheist as I am.

 

[humanino]

I disagree with turbo-1, simply because from a scientific stand point the Null-Hypothesis, in my view, should be non-existence of a deity.

But that does not work with an irrational person. We may all agree on that, amongst rational people, yet that does not change a bit the mind of religious integrist.

Another point that I want to stress is that, if you are confident in your moral values, irrationallity should not challenge your intellect and one should react calmly when confronted with it.

 

[end3r7]

Another point that I want to stress is that, if you are confident in your moral values, irrationallity should not challenge your intellect and one should react calmly when confronted with it.

?

I'm not sure if that was directed towards, but I'm pretty calm. I haven't had any caffeine today, and I just enjoyed a good cup of tea. =)

Besides, I like to think I'm a pretty respectful person...

 

[DavidWhitbeck]

Atheists argue that there is no god.

That's not true. An atheist is someone that doesn't believe in God. That is a subtle but important distinction to be made from believing that God doesn't exist. There is a dichotomy and it's built upon a simple tautology. Those that are not theists are not+theist = a+theist = atheist. It's a simple matter of language. The "atheists" that you describe are a proper subset of the entire set of atheists.

And I would like to add that agnostics are also atheists by definition, simply because they fail to share that positive belief that theists possess.

 

[Cyrus]

The spin example was

• to try to calm down and cool the minds : let us not call each other names. Even bright people make mistakes
• To convey that sometimes, irrationality is good

I don't think anyones calling anyone else names.

 

[humanino]

That's not true. An atheist is someone that doesn't believe in God. That is a subtle but important distinction to be made from believing that God doesn't exist. There is a dichotomy and it's built upon a simple tautology. Those that are not theists are not+theist = a+theist = atheist. It's a simple matter of language. The "atheists" that you describe are a proper subset of the entire set of atheists.

And I would like to add that agnostics are also atheists by definition, simply because they fail to share that positive belief that theists possess.

Where we contemplate that, indeed, the OP needs to clarify the title of this thread.

Besides, I like to think I'm a pretty respectful person...

That was not directed towards you. I made a general statement which I thought might be useful in this discussion.

An example of useful irrationality is when it comes to art and creativity. Mathematical rigor is mandatory for a scientific publication, but creativity sometimes calls us to accept part of our irrationality. Mistakes are sometimes useful as well.

 

[Daniel Y.]

I'm, however, surprised at the number of people who said they could care less about having an eternal afterlife. I wonder how many of those opinions are genuine.

Wait a minute! Back the theist/atheist arguments up! Who *seriously* wants to live eternally (life or afterlife)? That would be the worst hell any religion could possibly dream up.

http://oyc.yale.edu/philosophy/death/content/class-sessions

This is the Yale professor of Philosophy, watch the 19th and 20th lectures (or preferably the entire course, it's very insightful).

Can you possibly think of anything you'd enjoy for an indefinite time period? Kagan gives the example of chocolate. He loves chocolate. Now imagine he eats one piece, then two, then three, and so on. How long before he wouldn't want chocolate anymore? Nothing is great for an indefinite time period. He also talks about liking math; he enjoys doing it - but day after day, year after year, billions of years upon billions of years? It would get boring; and not for just one specific subject. You might go fishing, do math, some physics, drive fast cars, an assortment of things - and it'd be fun. But for how long? A week? A year? 345654895236 years, a kazillionbillionzilliondazilibilion years? Remember - eternity is FOREVER. This isn't just a long time period that eventually stops, when one says eternal afterlife, it never ends; after a long time, it would be crushingly boring - and you'd have an eternity to go after the boredom starts.

 

[Poop-Loops]

That's not true. Atheists argue that there is no god. Theists argue that there is a god.

Agnostics argue (correctly, I believe) that we humans can never resolve such an argument.

Then where do I sit in all this? I claim there is no evidence for a god, therefore I don't believe in one.

I'm not asserting anything, I'm just looking at the (lack of) evidence and making a conclusion.

 

[humanino]

Then where do I sit in all this? I claim there is no evidence for a god, therefore I don't believe in one.

This is clearly Atheism.

Wait a minute! Back the theist/atheist arguments up! Who *seriously* wants to live eternally (life or afterlife)? That would be the worst hell any religion could possibly dream up.

Definitely clear, but end3r7 said (#37 page 3) he disagrees.

 

[Cyrus]

Wait a minute! Back the theist/atheist arguments up! Who *seriously* wants to live eternally (life or afterlife)? That would be the worst hell any religion could possibly dream up.

http://oyc.yale.edu/philosophy/death/content/class-sessions

This is the Yale professor of Philosophy, watch the 19th and 20th lectures (or preferably the entire course, it's very insightful).

Can you possibly think of anything you'd enjoy for an indefinite time period? Kagan gives the example of chocolate. He loves chocolate. Now imagine he eats one piece, then two, then three, and so on. How long before he wouldn't want chocolate anymore? Nothing is great for an indefinite time period. He also talks about liking math; he enjoys doing it - but day after day, year after year, billions of years upon billions of years? It would get boring; and not for just one specific subject. You might go fishing, do math, some physics, drive fast cars, an assortment of things - and it'd be fun. But for how long? A week? A year? 345654895236 years, a kazillionbillionzilliondazilibilion years? Remember - eternity is FOREVER. This isn't just a long time period that eventually stops, when one says eternal afterlife, it never ends; after a long time, it would be crushingly boring - and you'd have an eternity to go after the boredom starts.

This is great thanks! I like this video.

 

[Poop-Loops]

This is clearly Atheism.

Not the way turbo-1 defined it it isn't. He says I am asserting that there is no God, but in fact my belief is passive due to the evidence around me. Show me evidence of God, and I will believe.

 

[Poop-Loops]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Zo52T7uKOJU

 

[end3r7]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Zo52T7uKOJU

Hahaha, good one.
=D

 

[B. Elliott]

Not the way turbo-1 defined it it isn't. He says I am asserting that there is no God, but in fact my belief is passive due to the evidence around me. Show me evidence of God, and I will believe.

I share the same line of thinking to a T. If evidence was suddenly shown, I would be a believer that very second. I don't understand how having the position of 'there is no evidence' is (prettymuch) labeled as anti.

I'm not anti-magic, but if someone wants to believe in it, fine. Though I do not agree with being handed a label due to me not believing in magic.

 

[end3r7]

That's not true. An atheist is someone that doesn't believe in God. That is a subtle but important distinction to be made from believing that God doesn't exist. There is a dichotomy and it's built upon a simple tautology. Those that are not theists are not+theist = a+theist = atheist. It's a simple matter of language. The "atheists" that you describe are a proper subset of the entire set of atheists.

And I would like to add that agnostics are also atheists by definition, simply because they fail to share that positive belief that theists possess.

QFT.

Wait a minute! Back the theist/atheist arguments up! Who *seriously* wants to live eternally (life or afterlife)? That would be the worst hell any religion could possibly dream up.

http://oyc.yale.edu/philosophy/death/content/class-sessions

This is the Yale professor of Philosophy, watch the 19th and 20th lectures (or preferably the entire course, it's very insightful).

Can you possibly think of anything you'd enjoy for an indefinite time period? Kagan gives the example of chocolate. He loves chocolate. Now imagine he eats one piece, then two, then three, and so on. How long before he wouldn't want chocolate anymore? Nothing is great for an indefinite time period. He also talks about liking math; he enjoys doing it - but day after day, year after year, billions of years upon billions of years? It would get boring; and not for just one specific subject. You might go fishing, do math, some physics, drive fast cars, an assortment of things - and it'd be fun. But for how long? A week? A year? 345654895236 years, a kazillionbillionzilliondazilibilion years? Remember - eternity is FOREVER. This isn't just a long time period that eventually stops, when one says eternal afterlife, it never ends; after a long time, it would be crushingly boring - and you'd have an eternity to go after the boredom starts.

That's a valid point and a great link. Although I suppose if you believe an afterlife with a personal god, you could ask the almighty to erase your mind every now and then, or you know... send you into a new life, or whatever.

Besides, to be frank even though I can't honestly say I can think in those time scales, I'd rather be bored than not be. I genuinely cannot conceive, outside of an eternal torture in a hell-ish type of setting, many scenarios in which I'd say "yea, I'd rather not have an eternal life.'

 

[Evo]

People don't seem to get that an atheist simply does not believe and does not care.

It's not that atheists doubt the possibility of a deity or refute it, they just plain out don't even consider it, at all, ever.

If you tell me that you believe there is an invisible green penguin floating above my head and I tell you I don't believe you, this does not mean that I think that invisible green penguins could be real. I think that people that believe in deities want to think that everyone acknowledges the validity of a deity, even if there is no proof, but some want proof, that couldn't be farther from reality. Sorry, that simply is not the case. Atheists aren't asking for proof, that's where I think non atheists cannot grasp the concept.

 

[Poop-Loops]

Exactly. Atheism is a belief like an empty plate is a meal.

 

[lisab]

Atheism is...never having to take a leap of faith.

 

[end3r7]

Lol @ atheism quotage extravaganza
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=H3LHxNaAU-g

 

[OmCheeto]

Who spilled the beans that Moonbear would not be monitoring us tonight?

I kicked the J.W.'s off my front porch for the same reason I stopped arguing religion with trolls on the internet: They kept asking; "How does this increase your faith?"

I found out the other day that I only needed a mustard-seed of faith.

Well, that's all I had in the first place, and that's all I have now.

I was brainwashed by Alan Watts, a long time ago, that everything I thought I knew about religion and faith was wrong. Since then, I've had a wonderful journey, and my re-introduction to the universe after my death, should be just as entertaining.

I hope.

If not.

Oh well. It was a grand ride...

 

[lisab]

But back to the OP: what do you miss most from the time in your life you had faith?

To answer this, you have to suspend disbelief (literally!), and make yourself vulnerable a bit.

 

[lisab]

Interesting...thinking about having faith makes me feel like a child again.

 

[Evo]

But back to the OP: what do you miss most from the time in your life you had faith?

I can't say that I ever had "faith". My answer as to what I miss most would be the feeling of disbelief, that something was wrong with what I was being told. That the god represented to me was mean, jealous, hateful, cruel and vindictive. I started to realize that this "god" had all of the worst of human qualities, that it was based on 2000 year old beliefs and laws, and it became obvious that it was all made up by men. I started studying religion in earnest at age 8 trying to figure out if my feelings that it was a sham was correct. I wrote a book "A comparative analysis of theology", Give me a break, I was 8, I would give anything to have a copy of that and read what I said. I was 11 when I told my mother that I would no longer attend church.

I found religion deeply disturbing as a child, and I had to find out why for myself.

So what do I miss? Having nonsense spoon fed to me.

 

[B. Elliott]

I found religion deeply disturbing as a child, and I had to find out why for myself.

The sermons and rituals left me feeling a bit out of place. It would just give me an odd uncomfortable feeling and at times I felt like I had to run out the door to go get a breath of fresh air. People sometimes tell me that the rituals (or whatever you want to call them) make them feel full of joy and 'spiritual', but they just left me feeling a bit, like I was crazy.

 

[Cyrus]

Anytime I sit though a religious ceremony, I want to walk up and punch the guy giving the talk in the face. When I was at a funeral, the bozo was talking about how 'we come from the orb and we return to the orb".

Orb, what god damn orb? Is there a spaceship that I am not seeing? ...and people just stand around like bobble heads. Mmmm hmmmm, orb yes. We DO come and go to the orb... meanwhile I am the only one shaking my hide side to side giving the guy talking the ole stink eye

 

[Evo]

Anytime I sit though a religious ceremony, I want to walk up and punch the guy giving the talk in the face. When I was at a funeral, the bozo was talking about how 'we come from the orb and we return to the orb".

Orb, what god damn orb? Is there a spaceship that I am not seeing? ...and people just stand around like bobble heads. Mmmm hmmmm, orb yes. We DO come and go to the orb... meanwhile I am the only one shaking my hide side to side giving the guy talking the ole stink eye

Orb? That's one I hadn't heard before.

 

[Cyrus]

Orb? That's one I hadn't heard before.

I mean, I was really getting mad because here is my friends family sobbing their eyes out, and this guys taking advantage of them telling them a load of bullsh!t about orbs. They are muslim. The guys an f'in con artist IMO.

 

[Poop-Loops]

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=glRAN_8CkvQ&feature=related

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=bkhQLt1vbWU&feature=user

 

[B. Elliott]

Anytime I sit though a religious ceremony, I want to walk up and punch the guy giving the talk in the face. When I was at a funeral, the bozo was talking about how 'we come from the orb and we return to the orb".

Orb, what god damn orb? Is there a spaceship that I am not seeing? ...and people just stand around like bobble heads. Mmmm hmmmm, orb yes. We DO come and go to the orb... meanwhile I am the only one shaking my hide side to side giving the guy talking the ole stink eye

I don't mean to go too off topic, even though this does somewhat relate to the OP original question, but I flat out don't like the positions that religions sometimes put me in. For example with my friends. I have a few friends that are religious and to this day I guarantee you that they don't with 100% accuracy know my stance on religion. I feel as though I don't want to mention it due to being labeled or discriminated against... not on a harsh level, but knowing their feelings and beliefs, I know what thoughts would run through their head.

Whenever they would ask me if i'd like to go to church with them, i feel compelled to make up an excuse rather than tell them that I don't believe in their god. To me, religions do more discriminating and segregating than anything else.

 

[Cyrus]

I don't mean to go too off topic, even though this does somewhat relate to the OP original question, but I flat out don't like the positions that religions sometimes put me in. For example with my friends. I have a few friends that are religious and to this day I guarantee you that they don't with 100% accuracy know my stance on religion. I feel as though I don't want to mention it due to being labeled or discriminated against... not on a harsh level, but knowing their feelings and beliefs, I know what thoughts would run through their head.

Whenever they would ask me if i'd like to go to church with them, i feel compelled to make up an excuse rather than tell them that I don't believe in their god. To me, religions do more discriminating and segregating than anything else.

You're in Tenn. I can imagine they won't be too nice down there about not loving JEEBUS.

 

[B. Elliott]

You're in Tenn. I can imagine they won't be too nice down there about not loving JEEBUS.

Definitely. I tell you, it's Southern Baptist heaven down here... no pun intended.

 

[Cyrus]

Definitely. I tell you, it's Southern Baptist heaven down here... no pun intended.

I don't think I could ever live in the south. I don't love religion, and I don't love G.W. Bush. I could be wrong, but southerners just seem to radically conservative to me.

 

[B. Elliott]

I don't think I could ever live in the south. I don't love religion, and I don't love G.W. Bush. I could be wrong, but southerners just seem to radically conservative to me.

As much as I hate to generalize, as a whole, compared to the rest of the nation, it is. It's not as intense as the rumors that go around, but it's definitely there.

To add to what I was saying previously, it also makes me have to stay on my toes to not offend anyone. I know I shouldn't really care if I offend anyone or not, due to it being their religion, but overall I like to consider myself a respectful person. An older gentleman that I used to work with would almost on a weekly basis ask me if i'd like to attend church with him, or would tell me that church would help me, or make me feel better. I flat out did not liek being but in those positions due to me not wanting to disrespect them, nor would I want them to have any thoughts of feeling sorry for me... or feeling that I 'could be doing better' with religion. I just think those positions don't need to be present or presented at all. To me, all it does is draw lines in the sand, if you know what I mean.

 

[binzing]

I'm all for an afterlife. I'd love to meet my ancestors, the great people of history, music, art, science, etc.

 

[Daniel Y.]

I live in Missouri - Mormon capital of the world (or so it seems). If I miss something about having faith, it was being able to run with the tigers instead of get eaten by them.