Tod & Hughston GR Intro: FRW Metric Derivation w/ R=6k or R=3k?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the Friedmann-Robertson-Walker (FRW) metric as presented in Tod and Hughston's Introduction to General Relativity (GR). Participants are examining the relationship between the Ricci scalar and the curvature constant, specifically debating whether the correct relation is ##R=3k## or ##R=6k##, and how these relate to the forms of the metric presented.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes the derivation of the metric in two forms and questions the validity of the relation ##R=3k##, suggesting it should be ##R=6k## based on their understanding of the Ricci scalar in three-dimensional space.
  • Another participant agrees with the ##R=6k## assertion, stating that their computation of the Ricci scalar yields a result that is double what Tod presents, implying a potential division by 2 in Tod's calculations.
  • A further reply explores the possibility that a simultaneous rescaling of variables might leave the FRW metric unchanged, but expresses uncertainty about how this would account for the factor of 2 discrepancy.
  • Another participant questions whether the extra factor of 2 could arise from a re-scaling of ##\chi##, suggesting that solving for ##R=3k## might be equivalent to solving for ##R=6k##.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether ##R=3k## or ##R=6k## is correct. Multiple competing views remain, with some participants supporting the ##R=6k## perspective based on their computations, while others reference Tod's work without resolving the disagreement.

Contextual Notes

There is uncertainty regarding the assumptions made in the derivation of the Ricci scalar and the potential impact of rescaling variables on the results. The discussion highlights the complexity of the relationship between the curvature constant and the Ricci scalar in the context of the FRW metric.

binbagsss
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I'm looking at Tod and Hughston Introduction to GR and writing the metric in the two forms;

[1]##ds^{2}=dt^{2}-R^{2}(t)(\frac{dr^{2}}{1-kr^{2}}+r^{2}(d\theta^{2}+sin^{2}\theta d\phi^{2}))##

[2] ##ds^{2}=dt^{2}-R^{2}(t)g_{ij}dx^{i}dx^{j}##

where

##g_{ij}dx^{i}dx^{j}=d\chi^{2}+\chi^{2}(d\theta^{2}+sin^{2}\theta d\phi^{2}) ## for ##k=0##
##=d\chi^{2}+sin^{2}\chi{2}(d\theta^{2}+sin^{2}\theta d\phi^{2}) ## for ##k=1##
##=d\chi^{2}+sinh^{2}\chi{2}(d\theta^{2}+sin^{2}\theta d\phi^{2}) ## for ##k=-1##

Now in solving for the form [2] Tod computes the Ricci scalar of ##ds^{2}=d\chi^{2}+f^{2}(\chi)(d\theta^{2}+sin^{2}\theta d\phi^{2})## and finds ##R=-(2\frac{f''}{f}-\frac{1}{f^{2}}+\frac{(f')^{2}}{f^{2}}## then integrates, uses ##R=3k## and solves for all 3 cases ##k=0,\pm 1##.

My question

##R=3k## doesn't seem right to me, since in 3-d space we can write ##R_{ab}=2kg_{ab}##. Of course you could just define a constant ##K=2k##, but it uses the constant ##k## in the FRW metric of the form [1] not ##k##, comparing to Introduction to GR lecture notes by sean M.Caroll,I thought that this should be ##R=6k##

...In Caroll's notes he uses ##R_{ab}=2kg_{ab}## in the derivation and gives the FRW metric the same as in form [1] with small ##k##. So it doesn't look as though Tod has used ##K=2k##.
Can anyone help explain how Tod uses ##R=3k##?

Thanks.
 
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binbagsss said:
I thought that this should be ##R=6k##

That's what I get when I compute the Ricci scalar for the spatial part of [1] (i.e., the part inside the parentheses after ##R^2(t)## ).

binbagsss said:
Tod computes the Ricci scalar of ##ds^{2}=d\chi^{2}+f^{2}(\chi)(d\theta^{2}+sin^{2}\theta d\phi^{2})## and finds ##R=-(2\frac{f''}{f}-\frac{1}{f^{2}}+\frac{(f')^{2}}{f^{2}}##

When I compute the Ricci scalar for this, I get twice the answer you are giving from Tod. So it looks to me like Tod is dividing by 2 somewhere in order to equate his answer for [2] with R = 3k for [1].
 
PeterDonis said:
That's what I get when I compute the Ricci scalar for the spatial part of [1] (i.e., the part inside the parentheses after ##R^2(t)## ).
When I compute the Ricci scalar for this, I get twice the answer you are giving from Tod. So it looks to me like Tod is dividing by 2 somewhere in order to equate his answer for [2] with R = 3k for [1].

Thanks for your reply. I can't see at all where Tod is dividing by 2 though.
Could the answer possibly lie in the fact that simulatenously rescaling:
##k \to k/| k/##
##r \to \sqrt{| k|} r ##
##a \to a/\sqrt{|k|} ##
The FRW metric is unchanged?
If it could however, I'm unsure how to justify explicitly.
Thanks.
 
binbagsss said:
Could the answer possibly lie in the fact that simulatenously rescaling:
##k \to k/| k/##
##r \to \sqrt{| k|} r##
##a \to a/\sqrt{|k|}##
The FRW metric is unchanged?

I don't see how that would account for the factor of 2. I don't have Tod and Hughston, so I can't say where the discrepancy arises.
 
I don't suppose anyone else has any ideas on where this extra factor of 2 is coming from?
Is it possible that ##\chi## could have been re-scaled such that solving the case ##R=3k## is the same as solving for ##R=6k##.
 
Last edited:

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