Transformer Impedance: Primary Side & Secondary Load

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of transformer impedance on the primary side and the effects of secondary load connections. Participants explore concepts related to transformer operation, including power flow, impedance ratios, and the influence of frequency on transformer size.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that the primary side of a transformer may draw power even when the secondary is not connected, citing personal observations of arcing in adapters.
  • Another participant explains the relationship between primary and secondary currents and voltages, introducing the concept of impedance ratios based on turns ratio.
  • There is a discussion about why higher frequency operation allows for smaller transformer sizes, with one participant suggesting it relates to inductive impedance and current levels.
  • Another participant elaborates on the relationship between voltage, frequency, and transformer core size, mentioning that higher frequency results in less flux and fewer turns, which can lead to a smaller transformer design.
  • A later reply addresses the arcing issue, attributing it to the charging of capacitors in switching power supplies.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the behavior of transformers and the implications of frequency on size, with no clear consensus reached on the specifics of these relationships.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge multiple influences on transformer design, including core material and operational frequency, but do not resolve the complexities involved in predicting transformer size based on frequency alone.

iScience
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Hi,

USB-AC-Power-Charger-Adapter-for-iPhoneiPod-WhiteUS-Plug_320x320.jpg

Since the primary side of a transformer is a closed circuit (like the cubical adapter for the iphone charger), it would make sense that even if my iphone wasn't plugged into the secondary, the primary would still draw power.

I know this is the case for at least some adapters, because i see arcing sometimes when i plug my laptop adapter into the wall without my laptop being plugged into the secondary.

But some adapters only start getting hot when i plug in load at the secondary. Why?

also

When the secondary load is connected to make the secondary a closed circuit, does its induced emf change the impedance for the primary side?
 
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A transformer has a turns ratio, primary to secondary, of Np : Ns.
The same power must flow through the primary and secondary circuits.

Given the low impedance mains supply, the primary voltage is fixed at Vp.
The secondary voltage will be Vs = Vp * Ns / Np
The load, Rs, on the transformer will decide the secondary current, Is = Vs / Rs.
The primary current will then be Ip = Is * Ns / Np.
So the transformer transforms the voltage one way, and the current the other.

Looking into the primary from the mains supply is seen; Rp = Vp / Ip.
That is the apparent input impedance of the loaded transformer.
Substituting everything back into everything else gives; Rp = Rs * (Np / Ns)2
The impedance ratio is therefore the square of the turns ratio.

The adapter you show is an electronic switching power supply. It is not a simple transformer, but it does a good imitation of a transformer. It operates at a much higher frequency than the mains supply, it can then use a much smaller transformer to isolate the DC output from the mains supply.
 
Baluncore said:
A transformer has a turns ratio, primary to secondary, of Np : Ns.

It operates at a much higher frequency than the mains supply, it can then use a much smaller transformer to isolate the DC output from the mains supply.

why does higher frequency = able to use smaller transformer?

is it perhaps.. because higher freq. = more inductive impedance = lower current = can use smaller wires. and therefore can make the transformer smaller in size?
 
Voltage is proportional to rate of change of flux.
Higher frequency is faster change of flux, so it needs both less turns and less flux.
Less flux gives a smaller core before saturation. Less turns gives a smaller winding.

There are too many influences to predict size from frequency accurately. Core material will also change.
A crude rule of thumb is something like; Mass ∝ Frequency-2/3
 
iScience said:
I know this is the case for at least some adapters, because i see arcing sometimes when i plug my laptop adapter into the wall without my laptop being plugged into the secondary.

In Switching Power Suply the mains voltage is always rectified and smoothed with capacitor of 10-100uF. The arcing is caused by charging that capacitor.
 

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