Transparency of the sun to extremely long wavelength photons

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the transparency of the sun to extremely long wavelength photons, specifically those produced within the sun itself. Participants explore the implications of such wavelengths, their potential production in the sun, and the challenges in measuring or detecting them.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether photons with wavelengths greater than the diameter of the sun can be considered in terms of transparency, suggesting that such waves cannot be localized precisely.
  • Another participant argues that while externally generated long wavelength photons would not be intercepted by the sun, those produced inside the sun might behave differently.
  • Concerns are raised about the actual production of such long wavelength photons by the sun, with one participant asserting that the sun's temperature above absolute zero is a necessary condition for their generation.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of electromagnetic waves at such long wavelengths, suggesting that they may not behave like flat waves analyzed in optics, and proposing the effects of placing antennas of different sizes within the sun.
  • One participant emphasizes that just because long wavelength photons are not forbidden by physical laws does not guarantee their existence, calling for evidence of a physical process that produces them.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the production and behavior of extremely long wavelength photons in relation to the sun. There is no consensus on whether such photons are produced by the sun or how they would interact with it.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the challenges in measuring extremely long wavelengths and the implications of the sun's size relative to these wavelengths. The discussion highlights uncertainties regarding the conditions necessary for the production of such photons and their potential interactions.

tasp77
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Hi, new here.

This came up briefly elsewhere and we didn't have the cerebral fire power to get very far with it.

Consider very, very long wavelength photons, (or conversely, very very low energy photons) produced inside the sun. Wavelengths we are looking at are in the range of 1 light year up 13 billion light years or so, the maximum size wavelength possible in our universe in this era. (or would that 'other' number apply?)

Do these photons escape from inside the sun? Considering the difficulty in making an antenna for these wavelengths (there are rather large), we think the sun is essentially transparent to this radiation.

We were also looking at the power output of the sun at these wavelengths, the individual photons are of vanishingly low energy, but, conversely, there might be quit a few of them.

We were looking at some solar luminosity formula, but one of the terms was for surface area of the sun, if the entire mass of the sun radiates at these wavelengths, is the surface area of the sun important in calculating the power emitted?

And if this all physics 101 topics, my apologies.
 
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If you speak about wavelengths bigger than diameter of Sun, it makes little sense to think about transparency of the Sun. Waves of such wavelengths cannot be localized precisely enough to say if they go through the Sun, or pass it by.
 
Yes, any such photons 'passing by' from elsewhere in the universe will 'ignore' the sun, but what of photons like that produced inside the sun itself?
 
What reason do you have to believe such photons are even produced by the sun?
 
tasp77 said:
Yes, any such photons 'passing by' from elsewhere in the universe will 'ignore' the sun, but what of photons like that produced inside the sun itself?
Then, as the E-M wave representing them is much longer than your object (Sun), they are not flat waves, as you used to analyse in optics, but rather are dominated by magnetic or electric part. And you should ask what happen if you put a ferrite antenna in the middle of the SUn, and how its magnetic field is screened. Or what happens if you put 1/10000000 wavelength long dipole and what would be its emission.
My intuition tells me that in both cases the screening will be close to perfect.
 
Clever-Name said:
What reason do you have to believe such photons are even produced by the sun?



Because the sun is warmer than absolute zero.


(Sorry, don't mean to be snarky, but I think that is what is needed to generate these guys. My understanding is the only photons 'forbidden' are those with wavelengths exceeding the size of the universe.)
 
As for the transparency of the sun to these very low energy photons, if any externally generated ones were passing by (say they are relics of the BB), the sun would be unable to intercept any of them because of it's small relative size, so if such a photon happened to be produced in side the sun, wouldn't it too find the sun to not be an impediment to it's passage out?
 
tasp77 said:
Because the sun is warmer than absolute zero.


(Sorry, don't mean to be snarky, but I think that is what is needed to generate these guys. My understanding is the only photons 'forbidden' are those with wavelengths exceeding the size of the universe.)

Just because something isn't 'forbidden' by a certain physical law is not sufficient to guarantee existence. Unicorns are not 'forbidden', and yet they are hardly ubiquitous. If you know of an observed physical process which generates extremely long wavelength radiation, then your the answer to your question will have some meaning.
 

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