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There is no isomorphism between the Lie algebra of the proper orthochronous Lorentz transformation and the Lie group.
Surely, in fact we were talking about the canonical isomorphism between Linear transformation (such as Lorentz transformations in ##\mathbb{R}^4##) and (1,1) tensors.vanhees71 said:There is no isomorphism between the Lie algebra of the proper orthochronous Lorentz transformation and the Lie group.
cianfa72 said:The point to be highlighted is that actually there exist a natural (or canonical) isomorphism between the two that requires no choice about the basis.
See for example the first answer here https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1108842/why-is-a-linear-transformation-a-1-1-tensor
The isomorphism referred to requires you to view the reals as a vector space. But from the point of view of tensor calculus, the reals--the numbers you get when you contract tensors with vectors and covectors--are not a vector space. They are just a field.cianfa72 said:the canonical isomorphism between Linear transformation (such as Lorentz transformations in ##\mathbb{R}^4##) and (1,1) tensors.
As a matter of math, yes, this is true. But as a matter of physics, sometimes the vector space structure of a field is part of the physical model, and sometimes it's not.ergospherical said:Every field is a vector space over itself.![]()
I don't understand the distinction, could you explain? Any field ##(F, \times, \cdot)## is automatically a vector space over itself because all the vector space axioms are contained within the field axioms. It doesn't have anything to do with Physics?PeterDonis said:As a matter of math, yes, this is true. But as a matter of physics, sometimes the vector space structure of a field is part of the physical model, and sometimes it's not.
Do you mean ##\mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R} =\mathbb{R}^4## as vector space ?PeterDonis said:The isomorphism referred to requires you to view the reals as a vector space. But from the point of view of tensor calculus, the reals--the numbers you get when you contract tensors with vectors and covectors--are not a vector space. They are just a field.
For the case of Lorentz transformations in 4D spacetime, yes, you would have to consider ##\mathbb{R}^4## as a vector space. But note that it is not the same vector space as Minkowski spacetime; i.e., it is not the vector space that the Lorentz transformations are normally viewed as acting on.cianfa72 said:Do you mean ##\mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R} =\mathbb{R}^4## as vector space ?
But ##\mathbb{R}## is not the only possible vector space over the field ##\mathbb{R}##. And in the case of the physics we are discussing, the vector space in question is Minkowski spacetime, which is not ##\mathbb{R}##, and not even ##\mathbb{R}^4## (which is not the same vector space as ##\mathbb{R}##, but considered as a vector space over a field, is a vector space over the field ##\mathbb{R}##), but is a different vector space over the field ##\mathbb{R}## (since the scalars you get when you contract Minkowski vectors and covectors are reals--this is the same point I made to @cianfa72 in my previous post just now). So the vector space structure being used to model the physics in this case is not the vector space structure of ##\mathbb{R}## (even though it automatically has one, as you point out), it's the vector space structure of Minkowski spacetime.ergospherical said:Any field ##(F, \times, \cdot)## is automatically a vector space over itself because all the vector space axioms are contained within the field axioms.
This is a bit of a digression... but Minkowski spacetime is ##M = (\mathbb{R}^4, \eta)## with ##\eta## a symmetric, non-degenerate bilinear form of signature (-+++), and where the Lorentz group acts on the tangent space ##T_{p}M## at every point.PeterDonis said:Minkowski spacetime, which is ... not even ##\mathbb{R}^4##
As a manifold with metric, yes. But we're talking about Minkowski spacetime as a vector space.ergospherical said:This is a bit of a digression... but Minkowski spacetime is ##M = (\mathbb{R}^4, \eta)## with ##\eta## a symmetric, non-degenerate bilinear form of signature (-+++), and where the Lorentz group acts on the tangent space ##T_{p}M## at every point.
ok, from the point of view of the representation of a Lorentz group element (i.e. a Lorentz transformation) by a (Lorentz) matrix we need to select a basis in the vector space part of the definition of ##M## as affine space (as said above in this thread actually an orthonormal basis), right ?vanhees71 said:The full symmetry group, connected smoothly to the identity is the proper orthochronous Poincare group, generated by translations (homogeneity of spacetime, no spacetime point is distinguished from any other), and the Lorentz group, which is again generated by the rotation-free boosts (building NOT a subgroup), describing the invariance of the special-relativistic laws of nature when switching from one inertial reference frame to another inertial reference frame, and rotations (building a subgroup), describing the isotropy of space as observed by any inertial observer.
A doubt on coordinates ##x^{\mu}## and ##x^{\prime \mu}##. They are used for the components of vectors (in a given orthonormal basis ##\{ \bvec{e}_{\mu} \}##) that live into the 'translation' vector space involved in the definition of ##M## as affine space.vanhees71 said:$$\newcommand{\bvec}[1]{\boldsymbol{#1}}$$
Sure, a Lorentzian (inertial) frame of reference can be defined by choosing an arbitrary point ##O## (origin) of Minkowski space and 4 Minkowski-orthonormal basis vectors, ##\bvec{e}_{\mu}## with ##\bvec{e}_{\mu} \cdot \bvec{e}_{\nu}=\eta_{\mu \nu}##. Then under a Poincare transformation the spacetime coordinates transform as
$$x^{\prime \mu}={\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} x^{\rho} + a^{\mu},$$
I think ##\eta_{\mu \nu} {\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} {\Lambda^{\nu}}_{\sigma} = \eta_{\rho \sigma}## you meant.vanhees71 said:where ##{\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho}## is a Lorentz-transformation matrix with ##\eta_{\mu \nu} {L^{\mu}}_{\rho} {L^{\nu}}_{\sigma} = \eta_{\rho \sigma}## and ##a^{\mu}## arbitrary four-vector components.
Surely, my point was to better understand the notation used for Lorentz transformations. To me it seems we are basically 'turning' the affine space into a vector space by selecting a given point in it. Hence the coordinates ##x^{\mu}## and ##x^{\prime \mu}## entering in ##x^{\prime \mu}={\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} x^{\rho} + a^{\mu}## are really the coordinates for the 'translation' vector space part of the affine space definition (i.e. the operator ##+## inside it is actually a sum of two vectors in the 'translation' vector space and is not the sum of a vector and a point in the affine space we started with).vanhees71 said:The full group of Minkowski space as an affine space includes space-time translations, i.e., you can shift the origin arbitrarily around without changing the physics, i.e., the physical laws look the same at any time and any place.
So is that the reason why we cannot establish a canonical isomorphism between Lorentz transformations (hence Lorentz matrices in an orthonormal basis) and the vector space of (1,1) tensor built on ##V## (i.e. the translation vector space) ?vanhees71 said:The Lorentz group is a subgroup of the symmetry group of Minkwoski space as an affine space. The Lorentz transformations themselves don't form a vector space.
That's one way of viewing what you are doing when you pick a particular coordinate chart on Minkowski spacetime, yes. But note that the choice of coordinates does not just fix an origin, it fixes the directions of the axes (four of them). So it does more than just turn the affine space into a vector space; it specifies a particular basis of the vector space.cianfa72 said:To me it seems we are basically 'turning' the affine space into a vector space by selecting a given point in it.
No, they aren't. The specification of coordinates, as above, specifies a set of basis directions as well as an origin.cianfa72 said:Hence the coordinates ##x^{\mu}## and ##x^{\prime \mu}## entering in ##x^{\prime \mu}={\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} x^{\rho} + a^{\mu}## are really the coordinates for the 'translation' vector space part of the affine space definition
And to follow on with this, Lorentz transformations (the ##\Lambda## part of the transformation equation you wrote) are changes of basis; they switch from one basis of the vector space to another, without changing the vector space itself (i.e., they rotate the coordinate axes without changing the origin).PeterDonis said:So it does more than just turn the affine space into a vector space; it specifies a particular basis of the vector space.
Sorry to bother you: so the operator ##+## insidePeterDonis said:And to follow on with this, Lorentz transformations (the ##\Lambda## part of the transformation equation you wrote) are changes of basis; they switch from one basis of the vector space to another, without changing the vector space itself (i.e., they rotate the coordinate axes without changing the origin).
Strictly speaking, it's a sum of real numbers. The equation you write is actually four equations, one for each value of ##\mu##. Each equation is an equation in real numbers. The ##\Lambda## term on the RHS expands to a summation of four terms in each equation, one for each value of ##\rho##.cianfa72 said:Sorry to bother you: so the operator ##+## inside
$$x^{\prime \mu}=a^{\prime \mu}+{\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} x^{\rho}$$ is actually a sum of two vectors or it is a sum of a point in the affine space and the vector ##{\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} x^{\rho}## ? I believe the former.
That's was actually my point to 'reduce' it to a sum of vectors that belong to the translation vector space part of the definition of affine space.PeterDonis said:One could interpret it as a combination of a change of basis in the vector space of vectors from the original (unprimed) origin, plus a function from the first vector space (unprimed) to a second vector space (of vectors from the primed origin) that preserves the basis, but that still doesn't match either of the things you described, and the operator ##+## in this case would have to be interpreted as a sloppy shorthand for combining two different and incommensurable operations.
There is no such thing as "the translation vector space part of the affine space" that I'm aware of. An affine translation can be viewed as a map between vector spaces; that's what I was describing. But a map between vector spaces is not the same thing as a vector space.cianfa72 said:That's was actually my point to 'reduce' it to a sum of vectors that belong to the translation vector space part of the definition of affine space.
See for instance here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affine_space in the section Definition.PeterDonis said:There is no such thing as "the translation vector space part of the affine space" that I'm aware of.
Ok, so if we consider the translations as a vector space acting on a set, then we have:cianfa72 said:See for instance here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affine_space in the section Definition.
Yes, surely.PeterDonis said:The set is a set of points, which we are viewing as points in spacetime.
The vector space is the space of translations, which are maps from the set of points into itself. Note that this vector space is not Minkowski spacetime! It's just ##\mathbb{R}^4##, or more precisely its additive component, considered as an additive vector space.
Actually I prefer to think of such ##+## operator as the 'add' operation of the translation vector space (see post#68 by @vanhees71).PeterDonis said:So the ##+## operator in the above is shorthand for "take the point referred to by ##\Lambda^\mu{}_\rho x^\rho## and apply the translation ##a^\mu## to it". So it's still not an addition of vectors. It's a shorthand for the translation operation.
It's a sum of vector components. It's good to distinguish between vectors (tensors) and their components. The vectors and tensors don't depend on the choice of any basis, while the components always do since to introduce the components you need a basis first to define them.cianfa72 said:Sorry to bother you: so the operator ##+## inside
$$x^{\prime \mu}=a^{\prime \mu}+{\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} x^{\rho}$$ is actually a sum of two vectors or it is a sum of a point in the affine space and the vector ##{\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} x^{\rho}## ? I believe the former.
Yes, definitely. In fact in that equation basis vectors do not appear at all.vanhees71 said:It's a sum of vector components. It's good to distinguish between vectors (tensors) and their components. The vectors and tensors don't depend on the choice of any basis, while the components always do since to introduce the components you need a basis first to define them.
No, it's not. As I said in post #81, it's a shorthand for the action of a single vector in the translation vector space, namely ##a^\mu##, on the underlying set of points. The other terms in your equation are not vectors in the translation vector space; they are coordinate vectors, i.e., points in the underlying set (the spacetime) viewed as vectors (by choosing a particular origin). The translation ##a^\mu## shifts the origin from the unprimed one to the primed one.cianfa72 said:This is really a sum of elements (vectors) belonging to the translation vector space.
Maybe I could be wrong but...choosing a particular point (i.e. the origin) in the affine space does not get you a vector space namely the same 'translation' vector space ?PeterDonis said:The other terms in your equation are not vectors in the translation vector space; they are coordinate vectors, i.e., points in the underlying set (the spacetime) viewed as vectors (by choosing a particular origin).
No. Go read the last paragraph of my post #85 again, carefully.cianfa72 said:choosing a particular point (i.e. the origin) in the affine space does not get you a vector space namely the same 'translation' vector space ?
To complement my post #85, here's another way to look at it.cianfa72 said:choosing a particular point (i.e. the origin) in the affine space does not get you a vector space namely the same 'translation' vector space ?