Trivial question about correct English grammar

[LennoxLewis]

For my official Master's thesis, i need to know how to write the plural form of abbreviations.

Let's say the abbreviation is CERN. And let's say we have two. Do we have two CERNs or two CERN's? My preference goes to the latter form, with apostrophe, but I'm not sure what the official ruling on this is.

Sorry if this should be in an other forum, but i couldn't find a better one. Thanks in advance!

 

[xxChrisxx]

No apostrophe. Apostrophies are used to show possession or contraction.At least that's what I remember from my english classes, oh so long ago.

 

[Monique]

I thought there is only one CERN?

Chris is right, CERN's means 'CERN his'. It is also "masters thesis", you don't say abbreviation's, right?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

The apostrophe is for possesives and contractions. Remember this and you will get As on your school work.

 

[LennoxLewis]

I thought there is only one CERN?

Chris is right, CERN's means 'CERN his'. It is also "masters thesis", you don't say abbreviation's, right?

Thanks. :)

The thing is, I'm from Holland and in our language, we do use apostrophes for some situations when English doesn't. It gets confusing because it's like that all the time. We also glue words together. For instance, the English "Piano player" would be "Pianospeler" in Dutch, not "Piano speler". About 70% of our people don't know this and do it wrong all the time.

 

[Monique]

Thanks. :)

The thing is, I'm from Holland and in our language, we do use apostrophes for some situations when English doesn't.

I am as well My boyfriend often calls me an allochtone, because my Dutch grammar is so bad

I've encountered the same problem when I was writing my thesis summary in Dutch. I had written down "embryos" as the dutch plural of embryo, but it should be "embryo's".

 

[BobG]

In English, abbreviations that use periods use apostrophes for the plural version while periodless acronyms use no apostrophes (and no periods, either).

Example - YMCA (Young Mens Christian Association) - During his trip across the U.S.A., he accumulated stolen towels from the YMCAs he stayed at.

M.P. (Military Police) - The M.P.'s accosted the drunk driver attempting to drive onto the base.

I have a problem with the second that no one seems to address. If M.P. is the abbreviation for Military Police, then isn't it already plural? Or does the abbreviation suddenly convert to Military Policeman when using its plural form? And definitely not to Military Policemen when using it in the plural form?

It's situations like these that make me think grammatical rules are made by a dozen elderly English teachers sipping a little too much brandy while sitting around a table.

 

[leroyjenkens]

In English, abbreviations that use periods use apostrophes for the plural version while periodless acronyms use no apostrophes (and no periods, either).

Is it just a matter of preference if you want to put the periods or not?
Wouldn't Y.M.C.A. also be correct?

M.P. (Military Police) - The M.P.'s accosted the drunk driver attempting to drive onto the base.

I have a problem with the second that no one seems to address. If M.P. is the abbreviation for Military Police, then isn't it already plural? Or does the abbreviation suddenly convert to Military Policeman when using its plural form? And definitely not to Military Policemen when using it in the plural form?

Sounds more correct to me to be used without the S for something like M.P., since it's plural.
Something singular, like M.D., would sound better with the S.

 

[BobG]

Is it just a matter of preference if you want to put the periods or not?
Wouldn't Y.M.C.A. also be correct?

Sounds more correct to me to be used without the S for something like M.P., since it's plural.
Something singular, like M.D., would sound better with the S.

Are you Canadian or what?! (Everybody knows that Canadians like to leave periods out of abbreviations - well, actually, if you're considering inserting periods back into YMCA, then I guess it proves you're not Canadian, but ...)

You never put periods in acronyms! You only put periods in abbreviations!

You start mixing the two up and people won't be able to tell the difference between your acronyms and your abbreviations! This will become particularly critical when M.P.'s start confiscating your MP players!

 

[Vanadium 50]

Apostrophes are not normally used for plurals, but there are exceptions when needed for clarity:

e.g. Mind your p's and q's.

 

[mgb_phys]

Apostrophes are not normally used for plurals, but there are exceptions when needed for clarity: e.g. Mind your p's and q's.

In British English they are used when you have a plural of a single letter like p or q - this is the reason for apostrophe in the plural of an acronym if you consider it as single letters.
Normally you use an apostrophe only if you use periods. So CDs (compact discs) but C.D.'s (certificates of deposit)

You can also use it when the word you are pluralising isn't at the end. Which would be the case for CERN since it's Centre's European ...
Also it's MP's because it is "members of parliament" not "member of parliaments".
But nobody uses this much anymore because the proper plural for MP is thieving, lying, cheating scumbags.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Are you Canadian or what?! (Everybody knows that Canadians like to leave periods out of abbreviations - well, actually, if you're considering inserting periods back into YMCA, then I guess it proves you're not Canadian, but ...)

You never put periods in acronyms! You only put periods in abbreviations!

You start mixing the two up and people won't be able to tell the difference between your acronyms and your abbreviations! This will become particularly critical when M.P.'s start confiscating your MP players!

But aren't acronyms also abbreviations? If not, how do you know which is an acronym and which is an abbreviation?

 

[mgb_phys]

But aren't acronyms also abbreviations?

Yes - sort of

If not, how do you know which is an acronym and which is an abbreviation?

An acronym is a new word made up of the initial letters of other words, if they don't make up a pronounceable new word then it's an initialism not an acronym.
An abbreviation is chopping the end off a word to make it shorter. If you chop the midle bit out then it's a contraction not an abbreviation.

ps. Nobody cares about this sort of stuff except the setters of crossworld puzzles and sad people who write letters to the Times.

 

[xxChrisxx]

ps. Nobody cares about this sort of stuff except the setters of crossworld puzzles and sad people who write letters to the Times.

Win.

The letter page is the only page I read in the Daily Mail and the Times. Watching old people rage about stupid things is hilarious.

 

[Dembadon]

But aren't acronyms also abbreviations? If not, how do you know which is an acronym and which is an abbreviation?

Asking for a distinction to be made between an acronym and an abbreviation is nonsensical. An acronym is an abbreviation.

You can, however, make a distinction within an abbreviation on whether it is an acronym or an initialism.

This is how I've understood it:

http://www.lyberty.com/encyc/articles/abbr.html

In writing, an abbreviation is any shortened form of a word or phrase.

Note, however, that there are types of abbreviations; the most common being acronyms and intialisms.

•acronym - (a type of abbreviation)
A word formed from the initial parts (letters OR syllables OR arbitrary parts) of a name.
Examples: NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organisation)


•initialism - (a type of abbreviation)
A group of initial letters used as an abbreviation for a name or expression, each letter being pronounced separately. For example, "BBC" (British Broadcasting Corporation), or "PBS" (Public Broadcasting System).

The key difference between an acronym and an initialism is that an acronym forms a new word, while an initalism does not. For example, you say "nay-to" for NATO; this means you are saying a word, as opposed to saying each letter (ehn-ay-tee-oh). So "NATO" is an acronym. But "U.K." is an intialism for United Kindom: you say each letter individually (you don't say "yuk", so you know it's not a word). Also, the periods are a dead-giveaway that's it's an intialism...

 

[BobG]

Which is why YMCA forms an acronym - wiyemseeay, an obscure word for "epic quest" from the Osage tribal language that received a boost in popularity when the Indian guy in Village People wrote a song about a poverty stricken, young man's quest for lodging.

There's a similar folktale about a Native American named Falling Rock. While I don't remember the details, it's popular in some states to play along and put up signs telling drivers to look for Falling Rock as they drive. Not to be confused with the sign below ...

which warns against real hazards: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003996996_webcow06m.html

 

[protonchain]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Use_in_forming_certain_plurals

 

[BobG]

With a few exceptions, apostrophes aren't used for place names in the U.S.. For example, the mountain just outside of Colorado Springs is Pikes Peak and the railway going from Manitou Springs to the summit is called the Manitou and Pike's Peak Railway (the mountain being named by President Benjamin Harrison's Board on Geographic Names and the railway being a private company that came into existence a year before Harrison's board convened).

One of that board's first actions was to remove apostrophes from almost all place names in the country. Here's the official position from the U.S. Geological Survey: "Apostrophes suggesting possession or association are not to be used within the body of a proper geographic name. ... The need to imply possession or association no longer exists."

Martha's Vineyard is one of the few exceptions on place names, already having enough history and popularity to be resist being renamed.

 

[mgb_phys]

Some local councils in England are removing them from new signs
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_midlands/7858853.stm

Mainly because they make the sign harder to read and more expensive.
Of course with nothing else happening in the world at the moment to distract politicians this has become the most important topic of debate.

It's hoped that a viscous guerrilla war between the "Apostrophe Protection Society" and the "Plain English Society" can be averted.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Asking for a distinction to be made between an acronym and an abbreviation is nonsensical. An acronym is an abbreviation.

I didn't make that distinction.

 

[Dembadon]

Asking for a distinction to be made between an acronym and an abbreviation is nonsensical. An acronym is an abbreviation.

I didn't make that distinction.

I know.

I attempted to answer your question(s). I didn't mean to be accusational. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Monique]

Is physics the plural of physic?

*runs and hides*

 

[xxChrisxx]

Is physics the plural of physic?

*runs and hides*

I think you mean physic's!

kekekekeke

 

[leroyjenkens]

kekekekeke

Where does this come from? I've seen it before.

 

[Dembadon]

Is physics the plural of physic?

*runs and hides*

I laughed out loud when I read this and received weird looks from co-workers. Thanks jerk.

 

[Dembadon]

kekekekeke

Where does this come from? I've seen it before.

In online gaming?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet#Kekeke

 

[Loren Booda]

Is physics the plural of physic?

*runs and hides*

I believe a "physic" is a purgative, circa 18th century.

 

[Equate]

There's a similar folktale about a Native American named Falling Rock. While I don't remember the details, it's popular in some states to play along and put up signs telling drivers to look for Falling Rock as they drive. Not to be confused with the sign below ...

This one?

One summer, we vacationed in the Great Smokey Mountains in Tennessee. Now Tennessee is real Indian Territory. I had watched enough John Wayne moves and old west shows on TV to realize that at any given moment, they could sneak up and attack us. With that in mind, I couldn’t help but stay awake and alert the entire drive around the Parkway. At one point while driving along the mountainous, rocky highway, we came upon a sign that read “Please Watch for Falling Rock.” I asked my father about this “Falling Rock.” He smiled at me through the rear-view mirror and told me this story:

http://thegingerquill.blogspot.com/2005/06/legend-of-falling-rock.html

 

[LennoxLewis]

Oh my, what did i start with one innocent question...

 

[Jobrag]

Sorry if I'm (I am) repeating something that has (that's) been said already, as well as signifying possession the apostrophe can also show missing letters so CERN's is probably correct but C'sERN would be better

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Oh my, what did i start with one innocent question...

Good thread, well done! :)

 

[leroyjenkens]

In online gaming?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet#Kekeke

Kids can be smart, but other times they can be really, really dumb. Proof is in that article.

 

[xxChrisxx]

Kids can be smart, but other times they can be really, really dumb. Proof is in that article.

The same can be said for any slang, it's neither dumb nor smart. It just is.

 

[leroyjenkens]

The same can be said for any slang, it's neither dumb nor smart. It just is.

I said the kids are dumb; but the slang is dumb too. At least normal slang makes sense, or is at least made from real words. Most of the time it's just a shortening of a word or phrase for casual discussions.
The internet slang is different. Some of it is based off of a typo. Like "pwn", for instance. That's deliberately misspelling "own". That's just asinine.

 

[mgb_phys]

At least normal slang makes sense, or is at least made from real words.

Are you my having a bubble me old china? I don't adam and eve it

 

[Saladsamurai]

Are you my having a bubble me old china? I don't adam and eve it

BOO YA! ... He just got PWND!
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... I think