Trouble understanding this derivation of Faraday's law

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of Faraday's law, specifically addressing the calculation of the change in magnetic flux through a closed loop in a dynamic magnetic field. Participants explore the implications of using different time-dependent magnetic field values in surface integrals and the treatment of infinitesimals in the derivation process.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about why the surface integral over the surface ΔS is calculated using the magnetic field at time t instead of at time t+Δt, referencing a claim that ΔS is first order in time and thus negligible.
  • Another participant clarifies that the second order term is proportional to the square of Δt and is considered negligible compared to first order terms.
  • A participant questions which term is considered second order and seeks clarification on the reasoning behind the square of Δt.
  • Discussion includes the idea that the difference between B(t) and B(t+Δt) is an infinitesimal proportional to Δt, making the difference between integrals negligible.
  • One participant requests a more formal or rigorous explanation of the concepts being discussed.
  • Another participant draws a parallel to the derivation of the product rule for derivatives, noting that higher order infinitesimals can be dropped.
  • There is uncertainty expressed about the concept of 'infinitesimals of higher order' and its application in this context.
  • A participant corrects a previous error regarding the integrals and questions why the magnetic field is treated as constant over the change in surface ΔS.
  • Some participants speculate whether this relates to Taylor expansions and seek resources or textbooks that discuss these concepts at a similar level without extensive vector calculus.
  • Concerns are raised about the assumption that the magnetic field cannot change significantly during the time it takes for the surface to change, with one participant expressing skepticism about this reasoning.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit a mix of agreement and disagreement, particularly regarding the treatment of infinitesimals and the assumptions made about the magnetic field's behavior during the derivation. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views on the interpretation of the derivation.

Contextual Notes

Participants note potential limitations in understanding related to the treatment of infinitesimals and the assumptions about the magnetic field's rate of change, which are not fully resolved in the discussion.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and educators in physics and mathematics, particularly those exploring electromagnetic theory and the mathematical foundations of physical laws.

chipotleaway
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I am having trouble understanding part of the derivation of Faraday's law given in this lecture at around 57:00


So the first goal is to calculate the change in magnetic flux through a changing closed loop in a dynamic magnetic field, and it's given by the following

\phi(t+\Delta t)-\phi(t)=\iint_{S+\Delta S} B(t+\Delta t).dA - \iint_S B(t).dA

where S is surface bounded by the loop at time t, S+ΔS is the surface bounded by the loop at t+Δt

\iint_{S+\Delta S} B(t+\Delta t).dA is then rewritten as \iint_S B(t+\Delta t).dA + \iint_{\Delta S} B(t).dA

The part I don't understand is why the surface integral over the surface ΔS now calculated for the field at time t - shouldn't it be B(t+Δt)? In the lecture (at 1:02:15), he says it doesn't matter because ΔS is first order in time, it's proportional to Δt. And the difference* is going to be proportional to Δt so we don't have to worry about the change in time over an infinitesimal surface because it's second order in time.

What does first order/second order in time mean?

*I think the difference he refers to is this
\iint_{\Delta S} B(t+\Delta t).dA - \iint_{\Delta S} B(t).dA

And in the next part, the equation we arrive at is

\Delta \phi=\Delta t \iint_S \frac{\partial B}{\partial t}.dA + \iint_{\Delta S} B.dA

I'm not sure why the Δs in the first integral become derivatives (shouldn't we then have dt rather than Δt in front of the integral?), but I think these are all meant to be infinitesimals.
And another thing which relates to my first question is why B in the second integral is no longer time-dependent.
 
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The second order term is proportional to the square of Delta t. It is an infinitesimal of higher order, negligible compared to the terms of first order, so it can be dropped.
 
Which is the second order term? And why square of delta t?
 
The difference between B(t) and B(t+Δt) is an infinitesimal proportional to Δt. The Surface ΔS is also an infinitesimal proportional to Δt. So the difference between the integrals

∬ΔS B(t+Δt).dA−∬ΔS B(t).dA

is an infinitesimal of higher order and is negligible.
 
Hmm...is there a 'formal' or more rigorous way of describing this?
 
That's standard procedure. Compare for instance with the derivation of the derivative of a product of two functions

[f*g]'(x)=[f(x+dx)*g(x+dx) - f(x)*g(x)]/dx = [(f(x)+dx f '(x))*(g(x)+dx g'(x)) - f(x)*g(x)]/dx =
= [dx f '(x)*g(x) + dx f(x)*g'(x) + dx^2 f '(x)*g'(x)]/dx = f '(x)*g(x) + f(x)*g'(x).

Notice the extra term dx^2 f '(x)*g'(x) was dropped because it was an infinitesimal of higher order.
 
Still not sure I quite understand it yet...I'm not sure if I've seen the product rule derived that way before. I'm unfamiliar with the idea of 'infinitesimals of higher order'.

I just noticed an error in my original post, the difference between the integrals should be ∬S B(t+Δt).dA−∬S B(t).dA, so over the original surface. So the total change in flux is given by

∬S B(t+Δt).dA−∬S B(t).dA + ∬ΔS B(t).dA

and of course B(t) in the last integral is what I can't quite grasp. It gives the flux through the change in surface, so if we want to calculate the total change, why not calculate it at the later time?
Are we saying that the magnetic field cannot 'that fast'? That is, in the time it takes for the surface to change by ΔS, the magnetic field cannot have changed a lot from what it was at B(t)?
Seems a bit dodgy to me to be honest :p
 
Does this have anything to do with Taylor expansions?
 
Are there any textbooks that discuss this (at this level)? I've yet to come across one that does so without using full vector calculus (and on this note, which books presents Faraday's law in the form given in the lecture?)
 
  • #10
Or any webpages...
 
  • #11
chipotleaway said:
Are we saying that the magnetic field cannot change 'that fast'? That is, in the time it takes for the surface to change by ΔS, the magnetic field at B(t+Δt) cannot have changed a lot from what it was at B(t)?
Seems a bit dodgy to me to be honest :p

Found an error in post #7...
 
  • #12
Anyone? :p
 

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