High School Trying to calculate proper time of worldlines using rotating frames

  • Thread starter Thread starter Karin Helene Elise
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary
Calculating proper time for worldlines in rotating frames presents challenges compared to inertial frames. A user seeks guidance on deriving proper time for a variation of the Circular Twin Paradox without relying on inertial frames. Suggestions include exploring Born Coordinates and using tensor methods to derive the appropriate metric for rotating frames. The discussion emphasizes the importance of accurately applying the metric tensor and understanding the dimensional consistency of terms in calculations. Overall, the conversation highlights the complexities of special relativity in non-inertial contexts and the need for precise mathematical formulation.
  • #31
Karin Helene Elise said:
I simply took the Minkowski metric in polar coordinates and transformed it into a rotating frame
That is Born coordinates.

Karin Helene Elise said:
While the resulting metric has a cross-term similar to what appears in Born coordinates, I did not impose rigid rotation or the Born coordinate conditions.
I don't know what you mean by this. A number ##\omega## appears in your metric; that appears to be a fixed number (whose physical interpretation is the angular velocity of rotation of the coordinates relative to an inertial frame). That is "rigid rotation".
 
  • Like
Likes JimWhoKnew and Karin Helene Elise
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
Oh, I see. Thanks!

I realize now that by using a fixed ##\omega## for all points and transforming the Minkowski metric via ##\theta' = \theta - \omega t##, I unwittingly ended up using Born coordinates, and so hadn’t explicitly framed it that way or emphasized the rigid-rotation interpretation.
 
  • #33
Every time I learn something new about relativity, it’s pretty confusing at first. Once I get it, though, it often doesn’t seem all that hard. But if I don’t work with it regularly, coming back to it can be confusing again. I find that very typical for relativity.
 
  • #34
PeterDonis said:
I'm not sure the OP is actually using the same Born coordinates for both observers. The calculation in post #7 looks like it's calculating p2's proper time in Born coordinates in which p2 is at rest.

If the OP's intent was to calculate p2's proper time in Born coordinates in which p1 is at rest, then I agree there will be a limit beyond which p2's worldline can't be described in p1's Born coordinates.
Well, my intent was to calculate p2’s proper time (in Born coordinates) in which p1 is at rest, but with ##\omega r \ll c##, so the velocity limit isn’t an issue.
 
  • #35
Karin Helene Elise said:
my intent was to calculate p2’s proper time (in Born coordinates) in which p1 is at rest, but with ##\omega r \ll c##, so the velocity limit isn’t an issue.
The velocity limit won't be, but you won't be able to integrate over p2's worldline past a certain point, because, as has been pointed out, only a limited portion of p2's worldline can be covered by Born coordinates in which p1 is at rest.

However, you can take the approach that @JimWhoKnew suggested in post #27, and calculate the ratio of the rates at which the proper times of p1 and p2 "tick" relative to coordinate time in Born coordinates in which p1 is at rest. Since that coordinate time is the same as coordinate time in an inertial frame, that calculation will end up giving you the information you need.
 
  • Like
Likes Karin Helene Elise
  • #36
Allright. I don't really understand the why, but I'll figure it out, reading about it.

Good to know where I got it incorrect.

My thanks to everyone involved. 👍
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 54 ·
2
Replies
54
Views
4K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
4K
  • · Replies 35 ·
2
Replies
35
Views
3K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
2K
  • · Replies 29 ·
Replies
29
Views
2K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
2K
  • · Replies 125 ·
5
Replies
125
Views
7K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
3K