Two engineers, a physicist, and an orbital mechanist can't figure this out

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Homework Help Overview

The problem involves Boyle's law and its application to a scenario with a balloon sealed in a bell jar where air is pumped out, affecting the volume and pressure of the gas. Participants are discussing the correct equation to calculate the pressure exerted on the balloon based on the given volume and the relationship defined by Boyle's law.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking, Problem interpretation

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants are exploring different interpretations of Boyle's law and the implications of the variables involved. There is debate over which equation correctly represents the relationship between pressure and volume, with some suggesting that dimensional analysis supports one option over another. Others are questioning the completeness of the problem and the assumptions regarding the constant 'k'.

Discussion Status

The discussion is active, with participants presenting various equations and reasoning. Some have offered insights into the implications of the variables and the need for additional information, while others express frustration over the lack of clarity in the problem statement.

Contextual Notes

There is uncertainty regarding the value and definition of 'k', as well as the known quantities in the problem. Participants note that the problem may be incomplete due to the absence of specific information about the final pressure and volume.

blochwave
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Homework Statement


Friend's fiancee gave this problem on a final she was administering and isn't sure how the answer key is right:

Boyle's law describes the inverse variation between the volume of a gas and the pressure, y, exerted on it. A balloon with a volume of 2.25 liters is sealed in a bell jar, and air is pumped out. As the air is pumped out, the balloon expands. Which equation could be used to calculate the pressure exerted on the balloon?


Homework Equations



Boyle's Law: P1V1=P2V2=k (presumably, this isn't given in the problem)

The Attempt at a Solution



The question is worded as is, we've argued about specific meanings for like half an hour

Answer key says choice B) y=2.25/k

Everyone and their mother says C) y=k/2.25

I mean, by dimensional analysis alone it should be C, right?
 
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Well, if you assume that the volume after the air is pumped out is known, then B] is the right answer. Let the atmospheric pressure be [itex]P_a[/itex] and the final pressure and final volume be [itex]P_f[/itex] and [itex]V_f[/itex]. Then:

[tex] (2.25)P_a = P_f~V_f[/tex]

Hence,

[tex] P_f = \frac{(2.25)P_a}{V_f} = \frac{2.25}{k}[/tex]

Do note here, that 'k' is not the constant you mentioned earlier i.e. [itex]P_1 V_1 = P_2 V_2 = k[/itex], as you said that it isn't given in the problem.

Also, unless the units of 'k' are given, nothing can be said about how the equation stands dimensionally. IMHO, this question seems quite incomplete.
 
See, we went down that train of thought, EXCEPT that 2.25*k is also an option. Why couldn't it be that?

If you can prove that Pa>Vf in terms of magnitude, I'll buy that the problem just sucks in that it wants you to assume k is greater than 1, and is otherwise ok
 
Last edited:
blochwave said:
If you can prove that Pa>Vf in terms of magnitude...

What you are essentially saying is that:

[tex] P_a - V_f > 0[/tex]

Look at the operation on the left hand side. This operation is not dimensionally correct. You cannot subtract volume from Pressure.

And yes, the problem does suck since you have no idea what 'k' is given. If 'k' is said to be independent of the final volume, then my answer is wrong. Here, again, I do consider that the initial pressure is known. In our case, we have two unknowns [final pressure and final volume], but one equation only. Which leaves with either finding another equation, or knowing one of the variables, which is why I assumed that the final volume is known.

Again take the case as, we take the equation to be:

[tex] \frac{2.25}{k}[/tex]

also,

[tex] \frac{p}{2.25}[/tex]

is a solution, where, [itex]p = 6.025 / k[/itex]. Now, both of them are constants, and even the second solution is right. In this way you could come up with infinite solutions involving an arbitrary constant and the value '2.25'. Which is why this question is an epic fail.
 
Last edited:

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