UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record

[Physics-Learner]

That is a crackpot claim. Urging declassification of official documents does not constitute a conspiracy theory.

hi ivan,

does this book refer to many of the same generals, pilots, etc. that are surfacing on the disclosure project ?

i have listened to many of them, and they say there is all sorts of documents, etc. that have been kept hidden by the people who control our top-secret stuff.

the claim is that it is the real wealth of the planet, not our govt, per se.

there is no doubt in my mind that we, the average joes, don't have even a clue as to what really goes on.

greer makes claims as to himself briefing various presidents on the matter. i have heard him talking on talk stations, etc. no one seems to counter that he has not made these talks, so i assume that he has.

greer claims that president clinton, for example, told greer that he would end up like jfk, if he went too far stepping on the toes of the real wealthy.

greer claims that several of our presidents have been politely told that they had no need to see any such reports.

greer shows a clip of eisenhower warning people of the secret military power growing in the united states.

greer has several hundred of these generals and such, all stating stories that back this up.

the whole point of the disclosure project is to get all this stuff "disclosed" to us, since it is our tax dollars that have paid for it all.

seti just issued a document stating the protocols should any of their employees receive et contact.

i am open-minded enough that i would like to remove any "secrets", so that all of us could stop arguing with one another, and talk about what we may or may not have.

too many times in my life i have thought that something wasnt possible, based upon who i was at the time, only to find out that it is true.

so i try not to let my biases steer me away from the truth. this whole et business was something i had pretty much disregarded in the past, because most of what makes the news is some individual wanting some attention.

it simply is not logical to dismiss all these military people as all have seeing "illusions".

that leaves me with two options. they are either telling the truth, or they are lying because they have grouped together for some agenda that is as of yet unknown to us outside the group.

greer claims that we have actually captured aliens and their spacecraft .

greer claims that we have done reverse engineering and have craft of our own that are far superior to anything else on the planet. and that we have technology that we have been able to glean from this reverse engineering, to once in awhile being able to actually fire something at the craft to make them crash.

two points that send up red flags to me are :

1) commenting that they go faster than light. even if he was a physicist, how would we ever know this ? it is not like we have any tools to measure that speed, and to our knowledge, that is contrary to what we know about physics.

2) if aliens had this sort of technology, i can see their craft crashing. but it would seem to me that they would have means of rescuing their comrades beyond our capability to hold onto them.

but this is all just speculation. i would like to know just exactly what we do or do not know, such that none of these "documents" stay secret.

i still don't put much credence in videos that i see with sparkling lights, etc. as stated, that sort of visual contact can be very misleading. we don't often see what we think we see. heck, i experience that in every day life.

these are simply not the same caliber of sightings that these military guys are claiming to have seen.

and when there are hundreds of said military people saying the same thing - like i said it goes beyond the realm of reasonable probability to assume that they are all seeing illusions.

while i am on the fence as to all of this, i simply would like to know one way or the other - does some group on this planet really have said knowledge, or don't they ?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

While I do listen to the people in Greer's group who claim first-hand observations and knowledge, I personally denounce Greer and anything he says. I think Greer has either gone over the edge in his beliefs, or he is a simple con man.

This is the thing to understand about military UFO documents. At last count, there were something like a billion classified documents [all subjects, not just UFOs] that could be declassified if requested, but far too many to simply declassify arbitrarily. It is a problem of time and cost, not State secrets or proof of ET. So while there are allegedly many interesting UFO documents still awaiting release, in no way does this imply there is any sort of conspiracy; nor does the request to release UFO documents constitute a belief in conspiracies.

 

[Physics-Learner]

thank you ivan,

you seem to be an unbiased person, with no axe to grind, so i take your thoughts seriously.

while i wish we had this technology so that we could help people on this planet, i will stay "agnostic" until proven otherwise.

so i guess i will just wait and see if anything comes of it.

 

[Evo]

hi ivan,

does this book refer to many of the same generals, pilots, etc. that are surfacing on the disclosure project ?i have listened to many of them, and they say there is all sorts of documents, etc. that have been kept hidden by the people who control our top-secret stuff.

the claim is that it is the real wealth of the planet, not our govt, per se.

there is no doubt in my mind that we, the average joes, don't have even a clue as to what really goes on.

And you don't think it is odd that this is just the US? If this was known to the governments all around the world, you don't think this would have come out years ago? Or do you think knowledge of ETs is exclusive to the US?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

If I may... who decides when a UFO report (or prediction) is nonsense? It would seem that if we are to keep an "open mind" about such things, then applying filters is not a good way to start.

I'd like to hear them all... and (to the dismay of some) equally disregard them as confusion, illusion, delusion, hallucination, or hoax (in the absence of real evidence, of course!). In science you don't get to throw out your negative results, you have to keep them all. Here's a negative result. Keep track!

EDIT: Clarification.

You can't tell the difference between the story you were discussing, and something like the Iran report?

As I have said a number of times, we have no proof or scientific evidence for visting ETs. You give zero credibility to all other forms of evidence regardless of the source, so why should I waste my time? Your position is illogical and your mind was made up long ago. I have posted many pages in the UFO Napster, so have a blast. At least that will allow you to learn a bit about the facts.

If you ever reach a point where you can discuss this without simply denying any evidence that you don't like, let me know. We agree that we can always imagine ways to explain away any case - that is an elementary argument - but I don't find these imagined explanations to be compelling in all cases: They often ignore key elements of the reports considered, they are used as robo-explanations without due consideration, they assume that all eyewitness testimony is equal and worthless regardless of context, and the denial of evidence is arbitrary and subjective. Also, I find your position and posture to be unreasonable. "Just say no" is a position of faith.

 

[Physics-Learner]

hi evo,

assuming this conspiracy exists, this is not about govts, but the wealth behind govts.

again, according to greer, no one in congress or the president is in the in - that makes sense, because they are elected guys that come and go every 4 years. and certainly not in the real wealth.

at this point, i plan to stay out of the discussions, unless something really new surfaces. this includes any sort of research on my part.

at least i am aware of what has been said in the past, and what is being said today - such that if something really concrete arrives, i will find out about it.

thanks for the various replies.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

And you don't think it is odd that this is just the US? If this was known to the governments all around the world, you don't think this would have come out years ago? Or do you think knowledge of ETs is exclusive to the US?

Many governments have already released their documents.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh yes, some of the people in Greer's group are discussed in the book. Truthfully, I am already familiar with the cases discussed, work was too busy, taxes were due, and I had to delay my reading for a time. Allegedly, Kean makes a nice argument at the end of the book, so I'll pass along my opinion about the book after I finish.

I can say that, imo, she gives too much leeway to Dr. Haines. Haines does good work to a point, but he is now a true-believer and he spends too much time in the pulpit.

 

[Je m'appelle]

Many governments have already released their documents.

But I still haven't seen any substantial content in any of them. Most of these documents are simply the outcome of investigations on Unidentified Flying Objects due to reports of sights by pilots and civilians, some of them have a conclusive answer to the spotting such as light anomalies, stars, planes, weather balloons, optical illusions due to meteorological phenomena, hoaxes and so on, and other remain inconclusive due to lack of evidence for a reasonable investigation.

None of them have proved or disproved anything concerning the existence of aliens, sincerely I don't see much importance on these documents for Ufologists, the way I see what the government is doing is as an attempt to show the population that "nothing is being hidden", this is how I interpret it, whether or not this is true is not up to me to state, as at least I, do not have enough knowledge to either affirm or deny this.

Honestly, I don't see why "flying saucers" or similar aircrafts are unlikely to exist, actually it is very likely that such a technology has already been mastered or is at least being very intensely researched, there's evidence of "flying saucers" being projected and researched since the 1940s. What I believe to be very unlikely is "flying saucers" operated by aliens rather than humans.

It is interesting to note that the Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk aircraft begun to operate in the beginning of the 80s under top secrecy, and was only publicly revealed in the end of the 80s and beginning of the 90s (specially during the Gulf War). I've heard about many sightings of unusual black triangular-like shaped aircrafts during this period of secrecy that later resembled the F-117 Nighthawk, so, well, anything is possible. I'm open to anything new that comes up, to some extent of course.

 

[mugaliens]

That seems like an incredibly small amount of warning.

For IFR traffic, of which commercial (airliner and air freight) traffic constitutes most, are in radio and radar contact throughout their flight, so there are no surprises, there. And they're given a handoff to approach control when the time comes.

As for the VFR traffic, the rule is to contact approach control before you hit the twenty-mile limit. You're squawking VFR, and contact them on the frequency listed for your sector of approach.

I always started about 25 miles out, and it goes something like this:

Me: "Little Rock Approach, Cessna 2922 Juliet, request (might take a couple of tries between traffic)."

LR App Cont: "2922 Juliet, say request."

Me: "2922 Juliet, 25 miles south, level at 2,500, heading 010, requesting vectors to ILS, 22 right."

LR App Cont: "2922 Juliet, squawk 2763, and ident."

Me: "2922 Juliet, squawking 2763, ident."

LR App Cont: "2922 Juliet radar contact, 24 miles south, level at 2,450 feet. Proceed direct to..."

And that's it. 25 to 24, possibly 23 miles. Thirty to sixty seconds, and at 120 kts, that's two miles (10%) max to dial things in. We're not doing Mach 3 up there... Even flying heavies, at 250 kts (instead of 115) 20 nm was more than enough time, although we'd usually have things wired by 30 nm out.

"Wait... wait... NOW! Little Rock Approach this is... <crash>"

Yeah, ok, I got the joke. Just wanted to make sure that others understand it doesn't take ten minutes to make things happen. More like two. The procedures and roadmaps are well defined, and the players are usually very experienced. There are a few times when things get hairy, almost always involving weather and heavy traffic.

Think about it as if you would approaching an unfamiliar interchange. You know you need to take exit B, so you peel off, pass the first right, taking the second for a 270 around and under the overpass. What? Thirty seconds, right? It's a little more complicated up there, and in 3D, but it's not that much more difficult.

 

[Physics-Learner]

thank you ivan,

you seem to be an unbiased person, with no axe to grind, so i take your thoughts seriously.

while i wish we had this technology so that we could help people on this planet, i will stay "agnostic" until proven otherwise.

so i guess i will just wait and see if anything comes of it.

i forgot to ask you - if you think that greer's group is being deceitful, do you have any ideas as to what their agenda is ? there are supposedly several hundred military-like people who are part of the group, all with very real claims.

they simply are not all having illusions.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

i forgot to ask you - if you think that greer's group is being deceitful, do you have any ideas as to what their agenda is ? there are supposedly several hundred military-like people who are part of the group, all with very real claims.

they simply are not all having illusions.

He has assembled a group of notable people who claim direct, first-hand knowledge of alleged UFO events, who wish to testify before Congress under oath. Okay, I'll accept that. Let them testify. From there, Greer goes off into never-never land. I have no idea what drives him. But it doesn't matter unless he can produce an anti-gravity engine or a free-energy device. When he does that, I'll pay attention to the rest of his claims.

Note that the aforementioned group of alleged witnesses may have little or nothing to do with the other claims made by Greer.

 

[jreelawg]

We already know that governments have, throughout this century, tested, and experimented, on people from all walks of life, in the name of science, defense, and warfare. If you wiki "human experimentation", you can read a long list of all kinds of factual instances of this sort.

We also know, that the military has experimented in ways to create artificial radar blips to throw the enemy off. IMO, it would be reasonable to assume that forms of deception in the field of aeronautics, may have been tested on unwitting subjects, either to see if it worked, or how they react. I would put a high likelihood, that at least some sightings, or anomalies, are a result of this.

Those who I have seen testify, for instance, at the recent national press conferences, seam to me, to believe they saw what they claim, and are attempting to be honest. This doesn't rule out the possibility that they were at the receiving end, of a test or experimentation in the field of aeronautical deception.

Personally though, having seen for myself, something which I have a very hard time explaining as anything but the result of aeronautical technology which is in line with other common reports, I am inclined to believe that their stories are most likely the result of something real and exotic.

In my case, it is IMO not possible I was a subject of a test of any sort. However, I could be an accidental witness to the testing of some kind tech which mimics UFO characteristics, without actually being a craft/flying object. I have entertained this idea, but I find it kind of hard to believe at this point.

I keep changing my mind about what I find most likely.

In terms of "flight" characteristics, I realize that a flying object needs not have a crew, so deadly G-forces need not apply. There may be some type of lighter than air technology combined with exotic propulsion making extreme acceleration possible. I find the no sound factor hard to explain, but then again, why would I know the limits in regards to quiet propulsion systems moving through air.

 

[mugaliens]

From there, Greer goes off into never-never land.

Ivan, aside from hard-nailed physics, you and I rarely seem to agree. No matter how I might slice or dice it on this issue, however, I agree with you six ways to Sunday.

 

[mugaliens]

We also know, that the military has experimented in ways to create artificial radar blips to throw the enemy off.

Oh, gosh, your tapdancing around this issue is PAINFUL.

It's called "electronic countermeasures," and has been in existence for more than half a century.

If there's anything you'd like to bring to the plate that's post WWII (60 years ago) please do so.

Thanks.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh, gosh, your tapdancing around this issue is PAINFUL.

It's called "electronic countermeasures," and has been in existence for more than half a century.

If there's anything you'd like to bring to the plate that's post WWII (60 years ago) please do so.

Thanks.

It is my understanding that false RADAR images were first used in Gulf I. Do you have evidence it was used prior to this?

 

[Physics-Learner]

He has assembled a group of notable people who claim direct, first-hand knowledge of alleged UFO events, who wish to testify before Congress under oath. Okay, I'll accept that. Let them testify. From there, Greer goes off into never-never land. I have no idea what drives him. But it doesn't matter unless he can produce an anti-gravity engine or a free-energy device. When he does that, I'll pay attention to the rest of his claims.

Note that the aforementioned group of alleged witnesses may have little or nothing to do with the other claims made by Greer.

hi ivan,

i did not see anything beyond your grin, when i originally read your post. i don't think the alleged witnesses would want to be part of his group, if they disagreed with greer to that degree. in other words, if what they are saying is true (regarding first hand contact), and what greer is saying beyond, is not true - i don't think you would get that many of them to be part of his group. they could still be willing to testify under oath to congress. but they are attending his conferences, etc. to me, that implies a tacit agreement with greer.

it is still puzzling to me.

i admit that the free-energy device and travel faster than light are pretty far out. if i could come up with a plausible agenda for the combination of greer and the military, i would have more of a gut feeling about it, myself.

 

[FlexGunship]

i forgot to ask you - if you think that greer's group is being deceitful

Perhaps they are being deceitful. However, we can forgive them for this because, before deceiving us, they have gone to great lengths to deceive themselves.

I also believe this to be the case with most "true believers." <--opinion

 

[Ivan Seeking]

hi ivan,

i did not see anything beyond your grin, when i originally read your post. i don't think the alleged witnesses would want to be part of his group, if they disagreed with greer to that degree. in other words, if what they are saying is true (regarding first hand contact), and what greer is saying beyond, is not true - i don't think you would get that many of them to be part of his group. they could still be willing to testify under oath to congress. but they are attending his conferences, etc. to me, that implies a tacit agreement with greer.

it is still puzzling to me.

i admit that the free-energy device and travel faster than light are pretty far out. if i could come up with a plausible agenda for the combination of greer and the military, i would have more of a gut feeling about it, myself.

Who is attending his conferences? How many of his witnesses are regulars?

Here is the problem as I see it [assuming only good motives for those involved - not an assumption that I make in practice]. If someone really believes they've seen ET, just about all points of reference for one's expectations go out the window. This leaves people vulnerable to highly exotic beliefs.

The idea of alleged abductees comes to mind. While I don't believe abduction stories, there is one logical inconsistency in the objections to these claims. People will point to the mental state of these alleged victims. As a number of people have commented in a variety of forms, "They don't seem very stable to me". To which I reply, "If you were abducted by ET and used as a lab rat, you probably wouldn't be very stable either!" Being a bit wacky helps their claim as much as it undermines it.

My personal suspicion is that Greer has lost all perspective, but he might just be a crook. He offers a format for people to tell their stories, so those folks may be dependent on Greer for the exposure they gain. If I saw an alien spacecraft , I would certainly want to tell the world about it!

Col Halt of the Rendlesham Forest [Bentwaters/RAF Woodbridge] case has been at Greer's conferences. But I spoke with Halt for over an hour by telephone once, and he doesn't even believe he saw ET! He specifically stated to me that whatever it was, he thinks it had terrestrial origins. He thinks it was very strange and exotic, even intelligent, but in all likelihood, terrestrial.

 

[Physics-Learner]

i have watched the videos, as presented. there may only be about 20 or so that have been presented on the videos, but that is still a pretty large number, for what we are talking about.

i recall that halt - i do not think he was saying that on the videos. these people are directly stating that these are ets, no ifs ands or buts.

a few have even claimed to have had direct contact with an alien that was held captive.

at this point, they don't need greer to testify before congress - so i simply don't buy that they could be simply using greer for a platform to tell their stories.

if it is not true, there is some sort of agenda. greer does charge like about $900 or so, if i recall, for joining in on the "contact an alien" sessions. but there are not that many people, nor is it done that often, that he is making lots of money, that i can see.

apparently, he walked away from a much better paying job as emergency doctor. so i don't see the "crook" angle of it, like the tv evangelists, who draw in big bucks.

i just really don't have any sort of gut idea about what is going on. i have had some direct emails with the greer group, and have seen some red flags, myself.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

i have watched the videos, as presented. there may only be about 20 or so that have been presented on the videos, but that is still a pretty large number, for what we are talking about.

I think he claims a total of about 400... or has he lost 380 of them? As a rule I don't keep up with Greer.

i recall that halt - i do not think he was saying that on the videos. these people are directly stating that these are ets, no ifs ands or buts.

Not Halt. There were other personnel involved that made more dramatic claims, but obviously Halt isn't sold. And in his report he clearly states that he never saw the alleged craft on the ground. He does confirm the claims about the investigation that followed wrt Jim Penniston's claims. However, he also completely dismisses the claims made by another one of these people.

a few have even claimed to have had direct contact with an alien that was held captive.

Yes, but those stories are few and far between as compared to compelling UFO [not necessarily ET] encounters. One of the things that impresses me most is the bulk of compelling reports in this respect; going back perhaps for centures. A few outliers don't impress me. Also, much of the legend about captured aliens or alien technology, is based on hearsay. For example, Ed Mitchell makes some pretty dramatic claims, but even he claims no direct [first-hand] knowledge.

at this point, they don't need greer to testify before congress - so i simply don't buy that they could be simply using greer for a platform to tell their stories.

Greer assembled this group with the alleged intention of gaining access to a Congressional hearing. So one can hardly dismiss this as relevant. No doubt they are now making money by lecturing at Greers conferences, so maybe its enough to be worth the trouble. I have noted over the years that even if a claim is legitimate, it could eventually degenerate into a business; even a scam. Anyone who has done or experienced something unusual is subject to this effect. For example, the Chilean miners are pretty much set for life.

if it is not true, there is some sort of agenda. greer does charge like about $900 or so, if i recall, for joining in on the "contact an alien" sessions.

Holy cow! Greer really has gone completely over the edge. This sounds to me like nothing but a scam. In fact, I would wager good money on that. I had no idea things had gotten so out of hand. It sounds like he might be making a lot more money doing this than he would as an ER doc.

 

[Physics-Learner]

tuition is $995. it looks like he does about 9 a year. don't know how many people, on the average, are in any particular group. but even if you only got 20 people, that is $20,000 in tuition.

but it is not as if it is easy to be accepted. if you read the link, one has to study all 3 of greer's books, practice meditation 4 times each, and then study the training kit. seems to me that if you just wanted to make some bucks, it would be much better not to have so many qualifications - LOL.

http://www.cseti.org/programs/Trainings.htm

it may certainly be worth their trouble, if it is a scam. i don't think all these military guys would go along with greer, if they knew greer was lying, yet they were telling the truth. i just don't buy that. they are all in it, either one way or the other.

yea, greer claims about 400. and while the videos are a couple hours long, he also claims to have i think hundreds of hours of video all together. which is not surprising if he has 400 military type people. not all are military. some are pilots, etc.

 

[Physics-Learner]

hi ivan,

i did not make myself clear. i don't think halt was saying that he thought it was a terrestial - is what i meant to say. i would have to review it.

below is a link for some cseti videos on youtube. the main one is 2 hours long, part 1 of a 4-hour presentation. it is worth the viewing, imo - especially since you are so much into the subject of ufos, already.

http://www.youtube.com/csetiweb

 

[nismaratwork]

What kills me about the "using alien technology" bit is that it's somehow assumed we'd have manufacturing or material to reverse engineer something made by an ET in an another star system. People seem to think you just snag yourself a saucer, take out the engine, stick it in a F-22 Raptor and suddenly we have a space-plane.

I think the alien tech claims you hear are never backed up, but still believed because a lot of modern technology seems pretty damned weird to some people. I think people feel this has to be fueled by something "otherworldly"... the irony being the most otherworldly thing at play was QM.

One word about "these military guys"... sometimes cops, soldiers, boxers and MMA fighters, high level athletes, are VERY superstitious and prone to being scammed as they look for "Edges". You can be a person on a position of authority or a group normally associated with rational behaviour and still be a part of this.

 

[FlexGunship]

What kills me about the "using alien technology" bit is that it's somehow assumed we'd have manufacturing or material to reverse engineer something made by an ET in an another star system. People seem to think you just snag yourself a saucer, take out the engine, stick it in a F-22 Raptor and suddenly we have a space-plane.

I think the alien tech claims you hear are never backed up, but still believed because a lot of modern technology seems pretty damned weird to some people. I think people feel this has to be fueled by something "otherworldly"... the irony being the most otherworldly thing at play was QM.

Awesome point, Nismar. Next time a member of the "reverse engineering alien tech" crowd gets a chance, pry open a computer processor and spend some time reverse engineering it. You'll find it surprisingly diffic-- impossible.

One word about "these military guys"... sometimes cops, soldiers, boxers and MMA fighters, high level athletes, are VERY superstitious and prone to being scammed as they look for "Edges". You can be a person on a position of authority or a group normally associated with rational behaviour and still be a part of this.

Airline pilots, infantry, and athletes are three groups that I know this to be true of personally. Doesn't mean all members of the group are. But: "if at least one, then possibly more."

 

[Ivan Seeking]

hi ivan,

i did not make myself clear. i don't think halt was saying that he thought it was a terrestial - is what i meant to say. i would have to review it.

I'm tellling you what Halt told me personally.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I would add that this thread is not about Greer's claims. By pointing to perhaps one of the least credible people in the UFO limelight, you discredit the entire subject.

 

[Physics-Learner]

I'm tellling you what Halt told me personally.

and i am telling you what halt is saying, in public, to press conferences.

he says that in his personal opinion, it was either from another dimension, or extra terrestial.

 

[Physics-Learner]

this thread is titled generals, pilots and government officials, etc.

well there are 400 of these people associated with greer, and these public press conferences.

you need to watch the video and hear what they are all saying.

i think you will get a better understanding why i am saying that all these people are aligned with greer.

i don't care what greer's reputation is. there are all sorts of high level people on his bandwagon, talking about personal events that they have witnessed, most of them claiming that it was not from earth.

i doubt that you could find anything about ufos as compelling as this host of high level people making their claims.

i had totally dismissed ufos as bunk, and individuals wanting attention.

i don't know what this whole situation is about (all these high level guys coming forward). they may be lying as part of an agenda. but i can't simply dismiss it as bunk, any more.

 

[FlexGunship]

this thread is titled generals, pilots and government officials, etc.

well there are 400 of these people associated with greer, and these public press conferences.

you need to watch the video and hear what they are all saying.

i think you will get a better understanding why i am saying that all these people are aligned with greer.

i don't care what greer's reputation is. there are all sorts of high level people on his bandwagon, talking about personal events that they have witnessed, most of them claiming that it was not from earth.

i doubt that you could find anything about ufos as compelling as this host of high level people making their claims.

i had totally dismissed ufos as bunk, and individuals wanting attention.

i don't know what this whole situation is about (all these high level guys coming forward). they may be lying as part of an agenda. but i can't simply dismiss it as bunk, any more.

This post is very fragmented, but I'm going to take a whack at it anyway.

Firstly, the thread title is the title of a book. I've now finished it. Ivan started the thread for the purpose of discussing it. We've all gone a bit off topic since then. The fact that you're seemingly unaware of this means that you probably haven't read the first post.

Next, it is my opinion that you should review your reliance on generic authorities. This same idea has been discussed for quite a while. In fact, if you review the section of this thread devoted to the Iranian UFO incident, you'll find very good reasons to IGNORE authority figures and their claims of UFOs.

(Disclaimer: opinionated statements ahead!)Next, you provide a link to a YouTube video of this group: (http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/thane_burnett/2010/10/28/15866311.html). This does NOT help your case. In fact, it turned out to be a sad moment for most of the individuals involved. Again, all previously discussed.

You've created a false dichotomy for yourself: these folks are either lying, or right. in actuality, the most common scenario is that people get confused. Even generals, and technicians, and auto mechanics, and pilots, and break dancers, and rock stars, and homeless people, and programmers, and coffee shop owners, and insurance adjusters, and firefighters, and retail salesmen, and police officers, and professional UFO replica builders get confused.

REALLY!

Unfortunately, the person who responded to your post as already gone through that youthful "everything is a conspiracy" phase and has grown up cynical. You've cited a group of genuinely confused individuals. And before you say: "but surely you can't discount ALL of them" let me say "and you can discount ALL of them."

A person only needs to be confused once to become convinced. And once two individuals are convinced, they can reinforce each others ideas build new biases and go on to shape the ideas of other men and women. The human brain is not a bastion of truth and fact; quite the opposite.

 

[Physics-Learner]

i don't know why you would consider it to be fragmented. seems right down to the point, which you seemed to get.

and i will stick to my guns. you can't simply discount all of these people as being confused.

they are all claiming to have seen significant events. some are even claiming to have seen aliens.

sorry, but your logic doesn't wash. if we were talking a handful, that is one thing. we are talking several hundred.

try asking a statistician what he thinks of those odds ? like a gazillion to one, my favor.

 

[FlexGunship]

i don't know why you would consider it to be fragmented. seems right down to the point, which you seemed to get.

Fair enough.

and i will stick to my guns. you can't simply discount all of these people as being confused.

But what if they are? It's a very real possibility. So what you've done is simply discount one of many possible explanations. It's not a particularly clever way to arrive at a reasonable conclusion.

they are all claiming to have seen significant events. some are even claiming to have seen aliens.

Imagine, if you will, that ETs have never visited Earth (it's a thought experiment), however, a general claimed to have seen aliens. How would you interpret this information? I am always ready to change my mind when presented with evidence. Eye witness accounts are hardly evidence.

sorry, but your logic doesn't wash. if we were talking a handful, that is one thing. we are talking several hundred.

I present to you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun" . Here, upwards of 30,000 people were all confused at once. Surely, at least a few hundred of them were very clever people (perhaps they were pilots, military officials, doctors, or break dancers). By your rules, we cannot discount their observations because there were so many of them.

However, do you find it likely that the entire solar system was torn apart, the Earth was sent hurtling towards the sun, and only 30,000 people in Portugal knew about it? I have given you a clear example where 30,000 people were all confused about a single event. I suggest you study the case carefully.

try asking a statistician what he thinks of those odds ? like a gazillion to one, my favor.

You might as well ask a pastry chef since a statistician has no pull here. You haven't collected any data yet, you've made assertions based on the assertions of others.

 

[Physics-Learner]

one general claiming to have seen anything might be barely enough to grab my attention, no more.

i don't get why you still hang onto your fatima example. i don't care if it was 30 million people. it was ONE EVENT.

in our case, we are talking about several hundred SEPARATE events, all being reported by military, pilots, etc.

the probability of all of these events witnessed by several hundred different people being illusions is about as close to nil as you can get.

your unwillingness to see that demonstrates a bias, to me.

ivan has an unwillingness, because he has a bias against greer.

all of the events, when combined, is by far the most significant thing anyone is going to point to, regarding aliens actually existing. it got my attention, when all of these singular sightings did not get my attention. i always considered the sightings to be people wanting attention.

if there is an agenda, then all several hundred of these events is easily explained. they are lying, for some reason unknown to us. and i am actually leaning towards it not being true, from various email contacts that i have had.

 

[FlexGunship]

(I edited your posts in my quotes for other to follow easier. It's not meant as an insult, but I sometimes have a hard time following, so I know this helps me. If you're unhappy with it, I can remove your quotes at your request.)

I don't understand why you rely so heavily on your example involving Fatima. I don't care if it was 30 million people; it was ONE EVENT.

In this case, we are talking about several hundred separate events; all of which are being reported by military officials, pilots, etc..

I'm not sure how this increases the likelihood that this isn't just repeated cases of confusion or misidentification. You keep skipping a middle step in the logic. In fact, the way I see it is: if only one person sees it, it's a null observation. There's no confirmation here.

The example of the Miracle of the Sun should show you that 30,000 eye witnesses at once event is insufficient. And you should conclude that certainly just ONE observer can't possibly be enough.

The probability of all of the event witnessed by several hundred different people being illusions is about as close to nil as is possible.

You continually assert this by fiat.

• You didn't like the one example of thousands of confused people watching one event.
• What if I give you thousands of examples where one confused person watching thousands of events?

Would that be sufficient to put a dent in your armor? If so, here's a start: http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/Venusufo.htm

Your unwillingness to see that demonstrates a bias, to me.

Ivan has an unwillingness because he has a bias against Greer.

You realize, that I feel the same way about you (and, Ivan might, too). Your unwillingness to accept human fallibility (especially when it's so rampantly commonplace) and subsequent willingness to substitute ET visitation absolutely confounds me! Genuinely. I cannot possibly sympathize with your reasoning, and I am really trying.

All of these events, when combined, are, by far, the most significant events anyone will point to regarding the existence of extraterrestrials. As a group they've got my attention even when they did not get my attention singularly. I've always considered sightings to be people wanting attention.

The amalgamation of data can't be more significant the the data itself unless you can show a causal relationship. Some of these individuals that you hold in such high regard are claiming that aliens disabled nuclear weapons! Have you considered that claim carefully?

If there is an agenda, then all several hundred of these events are easily explained: they are lying for some reason unknown to us. I am actually leaning towards it not being true based on various e-mail contacts that I have had.

An agenda is a highly ordered thing. It takes a lot of "units of evidence" to postulate a conspiracy. But it takes very few "units of evidence" to postulate a confused observer. Additionally, your reliance on "e-mail contacts" is uninspiring. My e-mail contacts said that your e-mail contacts are full of bologna!

 

[Physics-Learner]

flex,

i have taken the disarmament statements very seriously. in fact, it has much to do with my reasoning that these are not illusions.

either the weapon was disarmed or it wasnt. that does not consist of only a viewing. one can actually go to the weapon, and determine if it has been disarmed or not.

this is what i am trying to tell you - the significance of these events. we simply are not talking about 400 illusions.

either they are true, or they are lying.

i appreciate your thoughtfulness towards me, but i think we have run out of things to say to one another on this particular topic.

i think that we both understand what the other is saying, and at this point we have simply reached different conclusions.

you think they are illusions. i think they are either true, or lying (leaning towards lying).

 

[FlexGunship]

flex,

i have taken the disarmament statements very seriously. in fact, it has much to do with my reasoning that these are not illusions.

either the weapon was disarmed or it wasnt. that does not consist of only a viewing. one can actually go to the weapon, and determine if it has been disarmed or not.

And this shows a certain level of technological illiteracy. There isn't some "beam" you can broadcast that disables weapons. You can't "hack" into banks of relays through non-existent wireless networks. I will refer you to the earlier conversation:

When i was in the military/aerospace industry (for a short time) there weren't even common mechanisms for shutting down cockpit power in a fighter. The mechanism for disengaging the HUD (specifically) was non-trivially different for both fighters I worked on.

We should also keep in mind that this wasn't some sort of loss of power, the missiles actually were taken out of ready status. In the industry I work in now, we have many ways of forcing a machine into a safe condition. I can point to a single wire (one of many) that, if cut or removed, would bring the machine safely to a halt and stay there. The power is up and everything is running, the machine is simply in a "stop in safe" mode.

There's more than one wire, too, I should emphasize.

this is what i am trying to tell you - the significance of these events. we simply are not talking about 400 illusions.

either they are true, or they are lying.

Or they are mistaken.

i appreciate your thoughtfulness towards me, but i think we have run out of things to say to one another on this particular topic.

I don't think we've run out of things to say to each other. I believe my position is well-reasoned enough to withstand more than a casual inspection. I willing to be convinced by your arguments, but you are repeating the same one:

"If enough people make a mistake, it's no longer a mistake."

 

[Physics-Learner]

with regards to missiles, i have no doubts that a far superior technological race could do many things that we don't have the foggiest idea about.

so it still just boils down to "are they here or not ?"

with regards to not having anything to say, i did not mean to imply that you would not be willing to be convinced.

just that i simply have nothing else to offer.

i want to make it clear - i am not trying to convince you that there are aliens. i am even leaning towards the conclusion that there are none visiting us, either.

we simply are on different levels regarding the several hundred military people. my argument is the same. i simply believe the situation leads toward truth or lying. and you believe towards mistaken.

maybe someday we will both know for sure - LOL.

 

[FlexGunship]

with regards to missiles, i have no doubts that a far superior technological race could do many things that we don't have the foggiest idea about.

Well, in this specific case, that's not quite true. It's not that there's NOTHING we understand about physics. There is implied complexity in a missile silo. And there's nothing in the laws of combinatorics that allows you to simply bypass complexity without knowledge of a system.

In other words: you cannot invent a machine that simply knows the combination to any safe.

Likewise, an alien race cannot invent a machine that simply knows how to disable nuclear weapons.

so it still just boils down to "are they here or not ?"

And, as yet, there seems to be no significant evidence that suggests they are, or have been.

with regards to not having anything to say, i did not mean to imply that you would not be willing to be convinced.

just that i simply have nothing else to offer.

Very well.

i want to make it clear - i am not trying to convince you that there are aliens. i am even leaning towards the conclusion that there are none visiting us, either.

we simply are on different levels regarding the several hundred military people. my argument is the same. i simply believe the situation leads toward truth or lying. and you believe towards mistaken.

Hmm, your statement is reasonable, and I agree that these are our two stances. I would perhaps rephrase my position as: "confusion is far more likely than conspiracy."

maybe someday we will both know for sure

Unfortunately, if I'm right... it means that nothing will ever come of this. Ever.

And now, I will let you have the last word on this conversation.

LOL.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

with regards to missiles, i have no doubts that a far superior technological race could do many things that we don't have the foggiest idea about.

We may be near the end of the trail in physics, or we may not. At this point no one can say for sure. I do reject the absolute assumption that any race capable of getting here [assuming for a moment that this is possible] must be far more advanced than us. That may be true, but it may also be true we will discover some fantastic mode of travel tomorrow. I would guess that most physicists think we are near the end of the road in the physics, but until I see a TOE, + 100 years or so, I am reserving judgment.

so it still just boils down to "are they here or not ?"

False. That may be it from your point of view, and imo it is a profoundly interesting question [have we ever been visited?], but fundamentally we have claims of unexplained phenomena. This does not automatically reduce to one alleged explanation for some or all alleged events. It could be that there are some fantastically interesting phenomena out there that have nothing to do with ET.

Perhaps THE most common logical error here is to automatically link UFO claims, to ET claims. This is true for both believers and skeptics. It may be that many people are telling fantastic tales that are true, but flatly rejected as nonsense, simply because the interpretation of events by the alleged observer are used to define the entire event. Also, if an observer is describing some unrecognized but real phenomenon, then eyeballs will roll because no one can think of a reasonable explanation.

Even worse, the original report may contain no references to ET, but the association is implied by the nature of the report, so the "ET claim" is assumed.

 

[Physics-Learner]

hi ivan,

that was one of the 2 questions i wanted to ask an et

1) how long on average, would it take our civilization to advance to theirs ?

i would not go so far as to say that an et visiting us has extreme powers. they may or may not be able to do such and such.

i simply say that it would not surprise me to find that they could disable missiles with some ability/technology that we know nothing about.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

hi ivan,

that was one of the 2 questions i wanted to ask an et

1) how long on average, would it take our civilization to advance to theirs ?

Okay, but let's not go there.

i would not go so far as to say that an et visiting us has extreme powers. they may or may not be able to do such and such.

i simply say that it would not surprise me to find that they could disable missiles with some ability/technology that we know nothing about.

EMP weapons already exist. Even the police have been looking at technology to disable the electronic systems in runaway cars. To me, it isn't all that difficult to imagine defeating 1960s technology. One might even imagine that any sufficiently energetic phenonenon having the proper characteristics, could do this - say for example, and just as an example something one might imagine, the phenonenon that causes earthlights [earthquake lights], which are now generally accepted to be real. This appears to be a highly energetic electromagnetic phenomenon. Ball lightning [or something like it] also appears to be highly energetic at times. Lightning is also pretty energetic. The point being that we do find things like this in nature.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Btw, I worked on the national missile defense system and had to deal with some issues related to the EMP shield, so I do know a bit about missile silos.

 

[Physics-Learner]

wow - i don't have anything that impressive to talk about - LOL.

 

[mikelepore]

I get frustrated when people estimate the size and distance of objects in the sky. If an object is beyond the limited distance within which stereoscopic vision gives us depth perception, there is no way to estimate them. A larger object located further away and a smaller object located nearer will look the same. If you were given a known value for anyone of these three things -- an object's size, distance or speed -- then you could estimate the other two, but if you are not given a value for any of these three things then you cannot estimate any of them. Even people who should know better, such as pilots, frequently get this wrong. It's not such a difficult concept -- we have all heard such comparisons as: the moon looks like a pea held six feet away -- and yet the habit persists, and people continue to report how many "football fields wide" some UFO was. If you could see that your vision of an object in the sky was blocked by a cumulus cloud but not blocked by a cirrus cloud, then you would have a basis for estimation, but just to see a disc by itself, you can't know anything at all about its size, distance or speed. This fact about optics doesn't change just because you may be a state trooper or an airline pilot with many years of experience. The crackpot television programs never explain this.

 

[FlexGunship]

MP weapons already exist. Even the police have been looking at technology to disable the electronic systems in runaway cars. To me, it isn't all that difficult to imagine defeating 1960s technology.

I believe that the details revealed that the missiles in question were not actually "un-powered" but were, in fact, put into a safe standby mode (a mode from which it is impossible to launch).

That's not to say an EMP couldn't have similar effects, but an EMP is to "safe mode" what a sledgehammer is to stubbed toe.

 

[nismaratwork]

I believe that the details revealed that the missiles in question were not actually "un-powered" but were, in fact, put into a safe standby mode (a mode from which it is impossible to launch).

That's not to say an EMP couldn't have similar effects, but an EMP is to "safe mode" what a sledgehammer is to stubbed toe.

Normally I'd agree, but I have no idea what the backups and fail-safes are for launch protocols... maybe when there is damage to the primary systems, or perceived damage (emp overloading something) safe-mode is the default state for the whole system. Remember, unpowered systems are not going to be harmed by such a... selective... EMP.

The only person here who has claimed direct knowledge of missile systems has pretty much led me to guess that... yeah... if things go wrong the default for ICBMs isn't "Bolshevik Muppet," but rather "standby".

 

[FlexGunship]

The only person here who has claimed direct knowledge of missile systems has pretty much led me to guess that... yeah... if things go wrong the default for ICBMs isn't "Bolshevik Muppet," but rather "standby".

Rightly so, I've never worked on ICBM or their silos, but I've worked on weapons launch systems before (specifically, the interface for selecting, arming, confirming, and launching). But we should remember the conversational path that got us here:

We started out with the notion of "intentional disarmament" which is something I was arguing against because of the complexity of the operation. My counter-argument included discussion about other existing technology in which a single wire can mean the difference between ready-to-launch and safe-standby. Which is when I postulated that it's more likely that 1960s vintage silos had mediocre wiring instead of aliens disarming single missiles for 30 seconds at a time.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I believe that the details revealed that the missiles in question were not actually "un-powered" but were, in fact, put into a safe standby mode (a mode from which it is impossible to launch).

That's not to say an EMP couldn't have similar effects, but an EMP is to "safe mode" what a sledgehammer is to stubbed toe.

I haven't read the report in years and couldn't find my old copy. Did someone link it earlier? [I mean the original Boeing report].

It wouldn't be unusual for any system like this to default to a safe mode if something unusual happens. In fact, for any well-designed system, I would expect it.

My point was that ET isn't the only possible explanation for this event.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Normally I'd agree, but I have no idea what the backups and fail-safes are for launch protocols... maybe when there is damage to the primary systems, or perceived damage (emp overloading something) safe-mode is the default state for the whole system. Remember, unpowered systems are not going to be harmed by such a... selective... EMP.

The only person here who has claimed direct knowledge of missile systems has pretty much led me to guess that... yeah... if things go wrong the default for ICBMs isn't "Bolshevik Muppet," but rather "standby".

I don't mean to claim expertise on missile systems - I'm definitely not an expert - but in addition to some engineering of the launch control systems, I was actually tasked with the original planning for the EMP tests.

Surprisingly, I didn't even need a security clearance. The only secret information relates to the shape of the EMP wave. I was allowed to know most but not all wavesforms. Also while we couldn't know what was inside of the intrinsic barrier, we did know the level of attenuation required for an EMP.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

For the sake of confidence, I thought I had better provide a little support for this one.

One of my dusty old technical references, my Team NMD patch, and my online name.