Understanding Non-Conservative Fields in Faraday's Law - Explained

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of Faraday's law in the context of non-conservative electric fields, particularly when considering varying magnetic flux through closed loops. Participants explore the implications of perfect conductors and the behavior of induced currents in superconductors.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the application of Faraday's law when measuring voltage across a closed loop, suggesting that a short circuit should yield zero voltage despite the presence of varying magnetic flux.
  • Another participant clarifies that in ordinary conducting loops, nonzero resistance allows for a voltage difference, but questions arise regarding the behavior of perfect conductors.
  • Discussion includes the Meissner effect, where superconductors do not allow magnetic flux to penetrate, leading to induced currents that counteract external magnetic fields.
  • Participants note the importance of considering both the external magnetic field and the field generated by the loop itself in understanding the total magnetic field in Faraday's law.
  • One participant draws a parallel between this situation and electrostatic shielding, indicating that the internal field can counter the external field, leading to an equipotential state.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying interpretations of Faraday's law in the context of perfect conductors and superconductors, indicating that multiple competing views remain without a clear consensus on the implications of these concepts.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of perfect conductors and the conditions under which Faraday's law applies, particularly in the presence of superconductors and varying magnetic fields.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying electromagnetism, particularly in the context of Faraday's law, superconductivity, and the behavior of electric fields in conductive materials.

John94N
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This has been bothering me for a while. Consider a varying magnetic flux through a closed loop. Faraday’s law says the integral of E around the loop is V. This seems to be OK if the loop itself is split and joined with some resistance and with a voltmeter we measure across the resistor. However, if the loop is now closed we are measuring across effectively a short circuit and the voltage must be zero or very low but in any case not the emf developed by the varying magnetic flux. It also seems to work if we measure halfway around the loop and then double the measurement but again doesn’t work going 359.99 degrees aroung the loop. Is there something I am missing here? Probably.
 
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Good question. For most ordinary conducting loops, there actually is some nonzero resistance, so a voltage difference around the loop is permissible. However you're asking about a "perfect" conductor. How can can a perfect conductor, which is an equipotential, have a nonzero voltage difference when we go around the loop?

The answer is that truly perfect conductors, like superconductors, will not permit a magnetic flux to go through them. Strange as it may seem, it is experimentally verified. This is called the Meissner effect, and it explains why a permanent magnet cannot come in contact with a superconductor and instead floats above it.

One way to envision how this actually happens is that when a magnet is brought near the superconducting loop, the loop gets a current induced in it (for free) which causes a magnetic field exactly opposite to the one passing through it, canceling any flux.
 
Jolb, thanks for your response. i guess I was not considering the total B field in Faraday's law, that is the B field generated by the source and that generated by the ring itself.
Thanks John
 
John94N said:
Jolb, thanks for your response. i guess I was not considering the total B field in Faraday's law, that is the B field generated by the source and that generated by the ring itself.
Thanks John
Right. And as you note, it's not that either field is zero, only that the sum of the two fields is zero. It is similar to electrostatic shielding in which the external electric field is countered by the internal field, but only after and thanks to the displacement of charges ("equipotential" is simply the result).
 
Maybe this video will be helpful.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks for the responses. The videos from Dr Lewin's lecture really hurts my head, but they explain a lot. Thanks, John.
 

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