Understanding Sets Defined by Specification

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of sets defined by specification, particularly focusing on the interpretation of a set X and a predicate P(x) that determines membership in X. Participants explore the implications of the definition and clarify the relationship between the truth of P(x) and the elements of the set.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the truth of P(x) implies that x is an element of X, expressing confusion over the wording of the definition.
  • Another participant clarifies that the set {x ∈ X | P(x)} includes only those elements of X for which P(x) is true, emphasizing that all elements must lie in X.
  • Examples are provided to illustrate the concept, including sets A, B, and C, which are defined based on specific properties of numbers within their respective sets.
  • A later reply confirms that sets A, B, and C are proper subsets of their respective universes, while introducing set D, which is not a proper subset.
  • One participant notes that x must be in the universe of discourse X and satisfy the truth condition of P(x) to be considered an element.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the definitions and properties of the sets discussed, but there is some initial confusion regarding the implications of the definition of sets defined by specification. The discussion remains somewhat unresolved regarding the interpretation of the predicate P(x) and its relationship to membership in X.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the clarity of the initial definition and how it relates to the truth values of P(x) and membership in X, which may lead to different interpretations among participants.

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SETS DEFINED BY SPECIFICATION: Given a set X and a sentence P(x) that is either true or false whenever x is any particular element of X, there is a set whose elements are precisely those x ∈ X for which P(x) is true, denoted by {x ∈ X : P(x)}.

Does this mean that whenever the function P(x) is true, then x is an element of X, and when P(x) is false, then x is not an element of X?

I'm confused because the wording says that "...a sentence P(x) that is either true or false whenever x is any particular element of X..." which leads me to believe that whether P(x) is either true or false, then it is still an element of set X.

Or is it saying that there is a set within X in which P(x) is true, and there is also another set within X in which P(x) is false?
 
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Hmm, no, it's neither of these.

The set [itex]\{x\in X~\vert~P(x)\}[/itex] are all the elements of X which satisfy P. So, in particular, we want all elements to lie in X.

Maybe some examples may help you to see the concept:
  • [itex]A=\{x\in \mathbb{N}~\vert~x~\text{is even}\}[/itex]
    This means that we take all the elements of [itex]\mathbb{Z}[/itex] which are even. So the elements of our set A are precisely 0,2,4,6,8,10,12,...
  • [itex]B=\{x\in \mathbb{Z}~\vert~x>0\}[/itex]
    This is the set of all positive integers. The set consists out of 1,2,3,4,...
    Note that x=1/2 also satisfies x>0. But 1/2 does not belong to B because it doesn't satisfy [itex]x\in \mathbb{Z}[/itex].
  • [itex]C=\{x\in \mathbb{Q}~\vert~2x+2=0\}[/itex]
    This is the set of all rational numbers x such that 2x+2=0. The only number satisfying that is of course -1. And this number is in [itex]\mathbb{Q}[/itex], so it belongs to C.

Does this clear up some things?
 
In those 3 examples, would A be considered a proper subset of N, B a proper subset of Z, and C a proper subset of Q?
 
PhizKid said:
In those 3 examples, would A be considered a proper subset of N, B a proper subset of Z, and C a proper subset of Q?

Yes. These are all proper subsets.

Another example would be

[tex]D=\{x\in \mathbb{N}~\vert~x\geq 0\}[/tex]

So this set consists of all elements in [itex]\mathbb{N}[/itex] which are larger than 0. Clearly, this is the entire set. So D is not a proper subset in this case.
 
x has to be in the universe of discourse X and pass the truth condition x is an element of P(x).
 

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