Understanding the Contradictory Definitions of Work Done in Physics Textbooks

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definitions of work done in physics, particularly the apparent contradictions between the definitions found in textbooks: work as the product of force and distance, and work as the change in kinetic energy. Participants explore the implications of these definitions in various scenarios, including a specific example involving a box moving at constant velocity on a rough surface.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that their textbook defines work done as both Force x Distance moved in the direction of force and as the change in kinetic energy, expressing confusion over the contradictions between these definitions.
  • Another participant clarifies that the net work done by all forces equals the change in kinetic energy, using the example of the box to illustrate that while the driving force does positive work, the frictional force does negative work, resulting in zero net work.
  • A different participant agrees with the definition of work as Force x Distance but challenges the idea that work done is simply the change in kinetic energy, emphasizing that net work must be considered.
  • Some participants introduce the concept of the "work-energy theorem," suggesting that while it is a correct dynamical statement, it does not fully capture the nuances of energy statements, particularly in cases involving friction and normal forces.
  • There is mention of the term "pseudowork" in relation to friction and normal forces, indicating that these forces complicate the straightforward application of work definitions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definitions of work done and the applicability of the work-energy theorem. There is no consensus on a universal definition of work that applies in all circumstances, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the conditions under which each definition is valid.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the definitions of work, particularly in relation to specific forces like friction and normal forces, which complicate the straightforward application of the work-energy theorem. The discussion reveals dependencies on context and assumptions that are not fully resolved.

Deep_Thinker97
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In my maths textbook, it says that work done can be defined as Force x Distance moved in direction of force, AND change in kinetic energy. I feel both these definitions can be contradictory
Example:
A box moves at a constant velocity along a rough horizontal plane. It has a driving force of 5N and moves 3m. What is the work done against friction?
Well the frictional force is 5N since the box is at a constant velocity. Therefore, work done (against friction)=5N x 3m= 15Nm or 15J (this was the actual example in the book)
But, work done is also defined as the change in kinetic energy. This cannot be applied to this example as the box is traveling at a constant velocity so there is no change in kinetic energy.
I understand that there are some examples where work done does equal change in kinetic energy, but I don't understand what conditions must apply for this to be true (or not true)
How can the definition of work done be one thing under one circumstance and something different in another circumstance?
What is the actual, universal, definition of work done that is right in all circumstances?
 
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The net work done by all forces acting on an object, equals the change in the object's KE.

In your example of the box sliding on a rough surface against friction, at constant velocity, the driving force does 15 J of work. The frictional force acting on the box does -15 J of work. The net work done on the box is 15 - 15 = 0 J.
 
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Deep_Thinker97 said:
In my maths textbook, it says that work done can be defined as Force x Distance moved in direction of force
That's correct and is the definition of work.

Deep_Thinker97 said:
AND change in kinetic energy.
That's not quite correct. The net work on an object will equal the change in its kinetic energy. In your example, there is no net work done.

There are a few subtleties here, but that's the main idea.
 
Deep_Thinker97 said:
In my maths textbook, it says that work done can be defined as Force x Distance moved in direction of force, AND change in kinetic energy. I feel both these definitions can be contradictory
<snip>

Just to add a bit: the "work-energy theorem" F⋅d = Δ(1/2 mv2) is a re-statement of F= ma (substituting one of the kinematics equations for 'a'). Thus, while it is a correct dynamical statement about forces, it is not a correct energy statement- and as you note, friction can't be simply plugged in. Neither can the normal force. Using the phrase "work done against friction" helps remind us of that: we couldn't say 'work done by friction'. Similarly, considering a person jumping vertically, so that their center of mass moves while still in contact with the ground, shows that the normal force can't do work.

Some people use the term 'pseudowork' when discussing friction and normal forces for this reason.
 
Andy Resnick said:
Just to add a bit: the "work-energy theorem" F⋅d = Δ(1/2 mv2) is a re-statement of F= ma (substituting one of the kinematics equations for 'a'). Thus, while it is a correct dynamical statement about forces, it is not a correct energy statement- and as you note, friction can't be simply plugged in. Neither can the normal force. Using the phrase "work done against friction" helps remind us of that: we couldn't say 'work done by friction'. Similarly, considering a person jumping vertically, so that their center of mass moves while still in contact with the ground, shows that the normal force can't do work.

Some people use the term 'pseudowork' when discussing friction and normal forces for this reason.
Exactly.

These are the precise 'subtleties' that I had in mind in my last post. :) (And I have written at length about pseudowork many times here.)
 

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