Unveiling the Proof of Induced EMF Formula: E = ∫ (v x B) · dl

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the formula for induced electromotive force (EMF), specifically the expression ##E = \int (\vec v \times \vec B) \cdot d \vec l##. Participants explore its derivation, connections to the Lorentz force, and its applicability in various contexts, including potential differences and Maxwell's equations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the proof of the formula and seeks clarification on its general applicability.
  • Another participant connects the formula to the Lorentz force, suggesting that energy per unit charge can be derived from it.
  • There is a suggestion that using a loop integral might be more accurate, with an expectation that the result would be zero for a closed loop.
  • A participant asserts that the formula can be derived from Maxwell's equations, specifically referencing Faraday's Law and discussing the integration over a surface with a boundary curve.
  • Further elaboration includes the use of Reynolds' transport theorem for time-dependent surfaces and the relationship between the induced EMF and magnetic flux.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying degrees of understanding and interpretation of the formula, with some agreeing on its derivation from Maxwell's equations while others question the use of specific integrals. No consensus is reached regarding the best approach to proving the formula or its general applicability.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the potential confusion surrounding the use of the symbol ##E## for EMF, which is also referred to as a potential difference. There are unresolved assumptions regarding the conditions under which the formula is applied, particularly in relation to loop integrals and time-dependent surfaces.

phantomvommand
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TL;DR
Why is ##E = \int (\vec v \times \vec B) \cdot d \vec l##?
Why is ##E = \int (\vec v \times \vec B) \cdot d \vec l##? This seems to be a general formula, and I would like to know its proof.

Thanks for all the help.
 
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Are you familiar with the Lorentz force ?
Then the energy per unit charge (in SI units: Joule/Coulomb) follows from ##\int {\vec F\over q} \cdot d\vec l## .

PS it's a bit confusing to use the symbol ##E## for this; it's actually a potential difference (or emf)
$$\text {EMF} = V_{AB} = \int_A^B {\vec F\over q} \cdot d\vec l $$##\ ##
 
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BvU said:
Are you familiar with the Lorentz force ?
Then the energy per unit charge (in SI units: Joule/Coulomb) follows from ##\int \vec F \cdot d\vec l## .

##\ ##
Yes, I am. Thanks for the help, I never realized this connection. I suppose this formula can be used in general? Would I be more accurate to use a loop integral instead of an integral?
 
phantomvommand said:
Yes, I am. Thanks for the help, I never realized this connection. I suppose this formula can be used in general? Would I be more accurate to use a loop integral instead of an integral?
The expression is correct, so it should be universally applicable (but for a loop I expect to get 0 : ##\ V_{AA}\equiv 0## ) .

Check out a few of the sections in the link (Force on a current-carrying wire, EMF).

##\ ##
 
As anything in electrodynamics the formula can be derived from Maxwell's equations in differential form, which are always valid. Here one integrates Faraday's Law (in SI units)
$$\vec{\nabla} \times \vec{E}=-\partial_t \vec{B}$$
over a surface ##A## with boundary curve ##\partial A## with the usual orientation of the path given by the right-hand rule.
$$\int_A \mathrm{d}^2 \vec{f} \cdot \vec{\nabla} \times \vec{E}=\int_{\partial A} \mathrm{d} \vec{r} \cdot \vec{E}=-\int_A \mathrm{d}^2 \vec{f} \cdot \partial_t \vec{B}.$$
Now the usual integral form of Faraday's Law is written in terms of the magnetic flux
$$\Phi_{B}=\int_{A} \mathrm{d}^2 \vec{f} \cdot \vec{B}.$$
If now the surface ##A## and its boundary ##\partial A## are time-dependent you have to use Reynold's transport theorem for surface integrals to take the time derivative. Together with ##\vec{\nabla} \cdot \vec{B}## this leads to the ONLY generally correct form of Faraday's Law in integral form:
$$\mathcal{E}=\int_{\partial A} \mathrm{d} \vec{r} \cdot (\vec{E}+\vec{v} \times \vec{B})=-\dot{\Phi}_B=-\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \Phi_B.$$
For a derivation of the corresponding Reynold's transport theorem, see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday's_law_of_induction#Proof
 
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