News US Hurricane Crisis: American People's View

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The discussion centers on the delayed federal response to Hurricane Katrina and the perceived failures of FEMA and local government officials. Critics argue that FEMA's lack of preparedness and the inexperience of its director contributed significantly to the disaster's aftermath. The conversation highlights the need for better disaster response planning, including alert systems and evacuation strategies, especially in vulnerable areas like New Orleans. Participants express frustration over the bureaucratic inefficiencies and the allocation of blame between federal and state authorities. Overall, there is a consensus that the response to the crisis was inadequate and that lessons must be learned to prevent future failures.
  • #51
Did you see Sean Penn on TV today anybody?

He said he had been working in NO (i think!) and had been out for 7 days yesterday on the boats helping people and he had only seen a couple of non-civilian vessels or out there.

any thoughts?

NS
 
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  • #52
Two sides of the same story -

Morning Edition, September 6, 2005 · Commentator Judy Muller says Americans and their elected officials have been ignoring the problems of the poor in recent years -- until being confronted with the overwhelming number of poor residents left homeless by Hurricane Katrina.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4834201

Morning Edition, September 6, 2005 · Commentator Austin Bay did relief work with refugees fleeing Congo in 2002. He says criticism of the federal relief effort in the Gulf Coast springs from ignorance about the realities of giving aid.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4834204
 
  • #53
And something else to think about -

Reporter's Notebook
By Mike Pesca
Are Katrina's Victims 'Refugees' or 'Evacuees?'

NPR.org, September 5, 2005 ·
Hurricane Katrina created thousands of refugees who were forced into states throughout the South, and beyond. But not so fast. Media outlets have been deluged with complaints about the term "refugee." Civil rights activist Al Sharpton said, "They are not refugees. They are citizens of the United States." (NPR has adopted a policy of not referring to them as refugees.)

In some dictionaries the definition of refugee is simply "one seeking refuge." But other dictionaries include the qualifier that the word is usually applied to a person crossing national boundaries because of persecution. Even the etymology of the word contains examples of applying only to trans-national evacuators, and to those who don't leave their borders.

This is more than an argument over semantics. The word refugee has certain connotations. Sharpton's point was that it strips a person of dignity. "They are not refugees wandering somewhere looking for charity," he said. "They are victims of neglect and a situation they should have never been put in in the first place."

Sharpton's response needs some sorting out. First of all, of course these people need charity. There's no shame to that. But Sharpton is also saying that, to some extent, the victims of Katrina were victims of politics. You'd think he would embrace the term refugee specifically for its political connotations.

There is a bigger reason why I think the term is apt. They're refugees because circumstance is turning them into refugees. I was at one of the evacuation points the other day. Thousands of people were standing in mud. They were given food, drink and first aid. But there was little psychological aid, including even such basic information as what state they'd be bused to. If you watched this situation on television, you might not realize how dirty and foul-smelling these people were. There was a reluctance on the part of the rescuers to touch the people. There was a total unwillingness to walk among them. The reaction was understandable. Many of the people they were trying to help had swum through sewage water to get here, and no one was showering anytime soon.

The dynamic I witnessed was clearly of the dirty masses on one side and the soldiers and police on the other. There was a justification for this separation because security was a concern in New Orleans and law enforcement was on edge. But if you looked at the armed men in fatigues on one side of metal barricades, and thousands of grieving people in tattered clothes on the other, you couldn't help but think of Haiti or Kosovo. The people of New Orleans who finally made it out of town, and who are still being plucked from attics weren't people on their way out of town. The people who heeded warnings and had the wherewithal to leave town before Katrina hit were evacuees. These beleaguered people who had lost everything were something else.
 
  • #54
This was a massive failure of federal agencies. Even if no one from louisiana had notified any government agency, (which of course they had) , any federal agency with a single iota of common sense could plainly see on national television that there was a disaster happening that was unparalled in modern American history.

That was evident by Tuesday morning, the same morning that supplies should have started rolling into the city. Reporters got through on highway 90 from the east by noon.

We have been hashing and rehashing about who was responsible for what. I can only keep repeating that The Department of Homeland Security is responsible for any attack or natural disaster.

If the governor had been blown up, would they have sat on their butts and waited for a call?? But she did call didn't she?

The immediate need to rescue victims was slow. There was no water and ice pre positioned. FEMA has a number of companies who are contracted to haul the supplies to designated locations. It was not done.

An employee of a local trucking company told me on Friday that in anticipation of the hurricane they had 50 empty trucks on hold in the midwest and ready to roll since Sunday No fedreral agency had called!

By Frank James and Andrew Martin
Washington Bureau
Published September 3, 2005

WASHINGTON -- Government disaster officials had an action plan if a major hurricane hit New Orleans. They simply didn't execute it when Hurricane Katrina struck.

Thirteen months before Katrina hit New Orleans, local, state and federal officials held a simulated hurricane drill that Ronald Castleman, then the regional director for the Federal Emergency Management Agency, called "a very good exercise."

More than a million residents were "evacuated" in the table-top scenario as 120 m.p.h. winds and 20 inches of rain caused widespread flooding that supposedly trapped 300,000 people in the city.

"It was very much an eye-opener," said Castleman, a Republican appointee of President Bush who left FEMA in December for the private sector. "A number of things were identified that we had to deal with, not all of them were solved."

Still, Castleman found it hard to square the lessons he and others learned from the exercise with the frustratingly slow response to the disaster that has unfolded in the wake of Katrina. From the Louisiana Superdome in New Orleans to the Mississippi and Alabama communities along the Gulf Coast, hurricane survivors have decried the lack of water, food and security and the slowness of the federal relief efforts.
 
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  • #55
edward said:
The link below shows what Homeland Security had FEMA do in 2003 in advance of a category 2 hurricane.

What happened in the last three years to change this level of preparedness, and the pre-positioning of supplies? Budget cuts. Tax cuts for the wealthy, and an Illegal war in Iraq.
Actually, nothing at all: FEMA was prepositioned for this one. http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/29/katrina.washington.ap/index.html

As the Category 4 the storm surged ashore just east of New Orleans, Louisiana, on Monday, FEMA had medical teams, rescue squads and groups prepared to supply food and water poised in a semicircle around the city, its director, Michael Brown, said.
 
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  • #56
russ_watters said:
Actually, nothing at all: FEMA was prepositioned for this one. http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/29/katrina.washington.ap/index.html

That means that they supposedly were there on Sunday.
So why did it take until Wenesday afternoon to get water to the people in the superdoom??
 
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  • #57
There is clearly a disconnect somewhere.

Brown's statement seems inconsistent with the slow response or at least what has been reported or alleged.

The east side of New Orleans was flooded and the I-10 bridge was knocked out. With Lake Ponchatrain to the north, I can't see much of a semicircle, unless it was hundreds of miles in radius. :confused:

And then there was Mississippi and Alabama to deal with as well.

And was other relief aid turned away? If so, why? I keep hearing rumors of Walmart and other trucks being turned by FEMA personnel, when FEMA's supplies had not apparently arrived. That seems so unbelievable - so is that just a rumor?
 
  • #58
As the Category 4 the storm surged ashore just east of New Orleans, Louisiana, on Monday, FEMA had medical teams, rescue squads and groups prepared to supply food and water poised in a semicircle around the city, its director, Michael Brown, said.

The Coast Guard also pre-positioned resources and were on the scene Tuesday. This was good and each chopper/boat rescued a large number of people each day - it just wasn't enough for the huge number of people still trapped in the city. The bigger problem was that the 'rescued' folks weren't removed from the city - most were sent to the Convention Center.

What happened to the rest of the gang - the medical teams and groups to supply food and water and get the folks out of the city?
 
  • #59
Astronuc said:
And was other relief aid turned away? If so, why? I keep hearing rumors of Walmart and other trucks being turned by FEMA personnel, when FEMA's supplies had not apparently arrived. That seems so unbelievable - so is that just a rumor?

It wasn't just Walmart trucks. It was the red cross.

Broussard (sp?) president of Jefferson Parish gave an interview to the media yesterday. I think it was CNN. He had a very emotional rant involving the death of a coworker's mother. That was widely repeated. But before that he listed a number of things that FEMA failed to do, including a number of actions that are unexplainable and hampered the relief, including FEMA literally cutting communication lines. Broussard actually had to post state troopers to protect the communication lines from FEMA. I'll see if I can dig up a link.

Yeah, here it is. It was a Meet the Press interview, about halfway down the page. I highly recommend reading the whole thing.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790/
 
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  • #60
Here is the link:

http://www.zebrality.com/media/2005/aaron_broussard.mov
 
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  • #63
Here's a link for FEMA asking first responders not to respond.

http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18470
 
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  • #64
edward said:
That means that they supposedly were there on Sunday.
So why did it take until Wenesday afternoon to get water to the people in the superdoom??
Where did you hear that it took until Wednesday afternoon to get water to the Superdome? Does it say how much water they already had on hand? Does it say how many people they planned for and for how long?

The simple answer to the general question is that because of the flooding after the hurricane, they got more people than they expected after the hurricane (that's a fact) and ran out of food/water faster than they expected (that's an inference).
 
  • #65
russ_watters said:
Where did you hear that it took until Wednesday afternoon to get water to the Superdome? Does it say how much water they already had on hand? Does it say how many people they planned for and for how long?

The simple answer to the general question is that because of the flooding after the hurricane, they got more people than they expected after the hurricane (that's a fact) and ran out of food/water faster than they expected (that's an inference).

So you're saying it takes two and a half days to deliver fresh water to New Orleans.

OK.
 
  • #66
russ_watters said:
Where did you hear that it took until Wednesday afternoon to get water to the Superdome? Does it say how much water they already had on hand? Does it say how many people they planned for and for how long?

From all of those people on the news who were screaming "we need water, we need food. Remember, the ones on the overpass? That was wednesday. Those in the Super dome were complaining of the same thing.

The simple answer to the general question is that because of the flooding after the hurricane, they got more people than they expected after the hurricane (that's a fact) and ran out of food/water faster than they expected (that's an inference).

The locals could /should have planned for the scenario below:

More than a million residents were "evacuated" in the table-top scenario as 120 m.p.h. winds and 20 inches of rain caused widespread flooding that supposedly trapped 300,000 people in the city.

But the flooding that was planned for was from 20 inches of rain, not the leeve situation.

Off Topic
Russ: Did you notice that it was actually a failure of the two foot thick concrete flood walls along two channels that caused the flooding. Why didn't they try to block the entrances to the channels?
 
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  • #67
And here come the damning internal memos...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1102744&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

This indicates that Brown:

1. didn't think it was that bad. "nearly catastropic he calls it."

2. didn't think it was that important. gave rescuers two whole days to mosey on down to NOLA.

3. Was more worried about politics than saving the lives of 10,000 + Americans.
 
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  • #68
TRCSF said:
And here come the damning internal memos...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1102744&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

This indicates that Brown:

1. didn't think it was that bad. "nearly catastropic he calls it."

2. didn't think it was that important. gave rescuers two whole days to mosey on down to NOLA.

3. Was more worried about politics than saving the lives of 10,000 + Americans.
Good to see this sentence: "President Bush and Congress on Tuesday pledged separate investigations into the federal response to Katrina."
 
  • #69
FEMA Chief Waited Until After Storm Hit to Ask for Help
By TED BRIDIS, AP

WASHINGTON (Sept. 7, AP) - The government's disaster chief waited until hours after Hurricane Katrina had already struck the Gulf Coast before asking his boss to dispatch 1,000 Homeland Security workers to support rescuers in the region - and gave them two days to arrive, according to internal documents.

Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, sought the approval from Homeland Security Secretary Mike Chertoff roughly five hours after Katrina made landfall on Aug. 29. Brown said that among duties of these employees was to "convey a positive image" about the government's response for victims.

Before then, FEMA had positioned smaller rescue and communications teams across the Gulf Coast. But officials acknowledged Tuesday the first department-wide appeal for help came only as the storm raged.

Brown's memo to Chertoff described Katrina as "this near catastrophic event" but otherwise lacked any urgent language. The memo politely ended, "Thank you for your consideration in helping us to meet our responsibilities."

The initial responses of the government and Brown came under escalating criticism as the breadth of destruction and death grew. President Bush and Congress on Tuesday pledged separate investigations into the federal response to Katrina. "Governments at all levels failed," said Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine.

"FEMA response and recovery operations are a top priority of the department and as we know, one of yours," Brown wrote Chertoff. He proposed sending 1,000 Homeland Security Department employees within 48 hours and 2,000 within seven days.

Knocke said the 48-hour period suggested for the Homeland employees was to ensure they had adequate training. "They were training to help the life-savers," Knocke said.
They need training in the middle of an emergency? Well, if that's planning! But then on what has DHS and FEMA been spending all those $billions?

I really like this line -
Brown said that among duties of these employees was to "convey a positive image" about the government's response for victims.
Most emergency personnel don't have time to do PR when responding to an emergency. :rolleyes: Their actions speak for themselves.

Brown seems too concerned about image and not enough about the process - emergency response.
 
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  • #70
Firefighters Stuck in Atlanta for Days Awaiting Orders
'FEMA Hired the Best of the Best Firefighters ... and Gave Them Secretary Jobs'
By GREG BLUESTEIN, AP

ATLANTA (Sept. 7) - Hundreds of firefighters who volunteered to help rescue victims of Hurricane Katrina have instead been playing cards, taking classes on FEMA's history, and lounging at a local hotel as they wait for days for deployment orders.

"On the news every night you hear, 'How come everybody forgot us?'" said Joseph Manning, a firefighter from Washington, Penn. "We didn't forget. We're stuck in Atlanta drinking beer."

As of Tuesday, some of the firefighters, like Thomas Blomgren of Battle Creek, Mich., have waited at the hotel for four days. Now he and colleague Steven Richardson have been told they could be dispatched to a relief camp in South Carolina rather than help the devastated Gulf Coast.

"FEMA hired the best of the best firefighters, got them together and gave them secretary jobs," Blomgren said at the hotel near the Atlanta airport that as serving as the staging area for the firefighters.

He and Richardson said they followed FEMA's advice and brought huge packs filled with special firefighting suits, sleeping bags and lifesaving equipment to survive in harsh conditions for as long as a month. "But we'd be better off bringing pencils and cell phones," Blomgren sighed, taking a drag on his cigarrette outside the hotel.

Tony Russell, the FEMA official in charge of the firefighters, says he's trying to get the officers deployed as fast as he can but wants to make certain they're sent where the need is greatest.
 
  • #71
Astronuc said:
Firefighters Stuck in Atlanta for Days Awaiting Orders
'FEMA Hired the Best of the Best Firefighters ... and Gave Them Secretary Jobs'
By GREG BLUESTEIN, AP
I've given up bothering to post examples of incompetence. Some of the people here are so stuck in denial nothing will shift them.

I believe the saying is "There are none so blind as those that will not see" :rolleyes:
 
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  • #72
Astronuc said:
Firefighters Stuck in Atlanta for Days Awaiting Orders
'FEMA Hired the Best of the Best Firefighters ... and Gave Them Secretary Jobs'
By GREG BLUESTEIN, AP

Yeah, they also flew in 50 Utah firefighters... to be used as a backdrop for Bush's photo-op in Biloxi.

There are also reports that Bush's photo-ops delayed relief elsewhere.
 
  • #73
TRCSF said:
So you're saying it takes two and a half days to deliver fresh water to New Orleans.

OK.
Uh, no I didn't, I asked questions about someone else's statement. What are you reading? :confused: :confused:

And this is why I asked:
edward said:
From all of those people on the news who were screaming "we need water, we need food. Remember, the ones on the overpass? That was wednesday. Those in the Super dome were complaining of the same thing.
That's a supposition based on anecdotal evidence. You don't have any real facts there on what supplies came in and when they came in, do you? That is precisely the type of thing we should be trying to avoid.
Russ: Did you notice that it was actually a failure of the two foot thick concrete flood walls along two channels that caused the flooding. Why didn't they try to block the entrances to the channels?
You mean prior to the hurricane? I guess since all the levees and locks and canals are made to roughly the same standard, there wasn't anyone weak-point known prior to the hurricane.
 
  • #74
russ_watters said:
Uh, no I didn't, I asked questions about someone else's statement. What are you reading? :confused: :confused:

And this is why I asked: That's a supposition based on anecdotal evidence. You don't have any real facts there on what supplies came in and when they came in, do you? That is precisely the type of thing we should be trying to avoid. You mean prior to the hurricane? I guess since all the levees and locks and canals are made to roughly the same standard, there wasn't anyone weak-point known prior to the hurricane.

It's hard to tell what I'm reading. It doesn't make much sense.

It took two to three days for food and water to get to New Orleans. It's been confirmed by thousands of eyewitnesses and broadcast by the media all over the world.

One has to be really stupid to deny it.
 
  • #75
Art said:
I've given up bothering to post examples of incompetence. Some of the people here are so stuck in denial nothing will shift them.

I believe the saying is "There are none so blind as those that will not see" :rolleyes:

Don't give up so easy. Yeah, they're stuck in denial. Yeah, they don't care about the millions of victims, probably because they're mostly poor and black.

But at least we can get the truth out there.
 
  • #76
Informal Logic said:
Good to see this sentence: "President Bush and Congress on Tuesday pledged separate investigations into the federal response to Katrina."

That's good to read. Unfortunately Tom Delay muttered something about it being Mayor Nagin's fault, then canceled congressional hearings on the matter.
 
  • #77
TRCSF said:
It's hard to tell what I'm reading. It doesn't make much sense.

It took two to three days for food and water to get to New Orleans. It's been confirmed by thousands of eyewitnesses and broadcast by the media all over the world.

One has to be really stupid to deny it.
Have a look at the facts you have and lay out the logical basis for your conclusion. It'll make more sense then. Your conclusion does not follow from your facts because your facts are incomplete and your conclusion is directly contradicted by other facts.

What you have is a set of facts that seem to support one conclusion, not a set of facts that do directly support that conclusion and another set of facts that you are ignoring that directly contradict your conclusion. You're making an unwarranted logical leap. That, again, is the problem with anecdotal evidence.

Now then, I still would like to address this:
So you're saying it takes two and a half days to deliver fresh water to New Orleans.
Quote for me where I said that or retract it and apologize. I will not have you putting words in my mouth that I did not say.
 
  • #78
russ_watters said:
Have a look at the facts you have and lay out the logical basis for your conclusion. It'll make more sense then. Your conclusion does not follow from your facts because your facts are incomplete and your conclusion is directly contradicted by other facts.

What you have is a set of facts that seem to support one conclusion, not a set of facts that do directly support that conclusion and another set of facts that you are ignoring that directly contradict your conclusion. You're making an unwarranted logical leap. That, again, is the problem with anecdotal evidence.

Now then, I still would like to address this: Quote for me where I said that or retract it and apologize. I will not have you putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

Russ. You're a week behind.

The lack of water and food in NOLA was witnessed by hundreds of thousands and reported live on air to millions of American households. The fact that anybody would deny it is utterly ridiculous. I'm getting contact embarassment.

Hearing you talk about facts has become like arguing a creationist.

You've said that FEMA was prepositioned. Essentially that they did their job. Now, it took three days after the storm for FEMA to get food and water to NOLA. I know you're denying it. I know you hate it. But facts is facts. So, the logically conclusion is that it takes two to three days to drive to NOLA. That's some conclusion. RCMP from Vancouver got there faster than FEMA did.

No, Russ. If you want to save face, it's time to admit the facts.

Water and food didn't get there in time.

People didn't just die because of the hurricane. They died because of a lack of response.

FEMA screwed up.

Bush screwed up.
 
  • #79
As posted before, the difficulty in obtaining facts at this time is due in large part to poor news reporting. Here is an article on that very topic:

News You Can Lose
What I hate about cable TV journalism.
By Jack Shafer
Posted Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005

http://slate.msn.com/id/2125683/?GT1=6900

In the meantime, it is not the end of the world, and nit picky debate is a waste of BTUs.
 
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  • #80
Informal Logic said:
In the meantime, it is not the end of the world, and nit picky debate is a waste of BTUs.

No, it's not the end of the world.

But it is the largest single displacement of Americans since the Civil War.

It's worse than the 1906 San Fran earthquake, worse than the Great Chicago Fire, worse than the Dust Bowl, and way worse than 9-11.
 
  • #81
Informal Logic said:
As posted before, the difficulty in obtaining facts at this time is due in large part to poor news reporting. Here is an article on that very topic:

News You Can Lose
What I hate about cable TV journalism.
By Jack Shafer
Posted Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005

http://slate.msn.com/id/2125683/?GT1=6900

QUOTE]

Considering the focus of media on that missing Aruba girl for the last three months, I've been fairly surprised that they're doing a mostly professional job in NOLA.

One can't hold the media accountable for not being aware of the most obvious facts.
 
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  • #82
That's a good article!

… hate it when the news networks pair music with montages of newsworthy footage.

… hate the use of undated footage, especially when it's two or three days old

… hate the conspicuous lack of maps illustrating where the camera and reporters are . . .

… hate the absence of context and continuity . . .
Yep
 
  • #83
TRCSF said:
No, it's not the end of the world.

But it is the largest single displacement of Americans since the Civil War.

It's worse than the 1906 San Fran earthquake, worse than the Great Chicago Fire, worse than the Dust Bowl, and way worse than 9-11.
It is not my intention to minimize the seriousness of this disaster. I only mean it is not the end of the world if we don't have all the facts at this time, so throwing annal fits are a waste of BTUs.

The Aruba story is another good example of crappy journalism. Still, if the reports of Katrina were better done there wouldn't be so much confusion about the timeline, agency responsibilities, etc.
 
  • #84
Compassionate conservatism - This is getting a lot of negative attention in the UK
MA BUSH IN EVACUEES ROW

Barbara Bush had come under fire for saying some of the Hurricane Katrina evacuees are better off now than before the storm.

Her remarks came as President George Bush - her son - faced growing criticism over his response to the crisis.

Mrs Bush made her comments after touring the Astrodome complex in Houston, where thousands of survivors are being cared for.

She told a radio interviewer that many "were undeprivileged anyway" and were in no hurry to leave.

"What I'm hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in," Mrs Bush said.

"Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality.

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them."

Mrs Bush and former president George Bush were visiting the astrodome to help boost morale and raise money for the rebuilding effort.

White House officials have declined to comment on her remarks.
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13431861,00.html

These are some of the people Ma Bush believes are now better off -
EFFORTS TO REUNITE KIDS

Pictures of hundreds of children who are searching for their parents after Hurricane Katrina have been posted on a website in the United States.

The site lists more than 600 youngsters and was set up by the National Centre for Missing and Exploited Children.

Ernie Allen, NCMEC president, said staff were touring shelters in Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas, using digital cameras to take photographs of those separated from their families.

One picture is of toddler Kiarra Roberts. All that is known of her is that she was found on September 5.
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13432053,00.html
 
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  • #86
A little more on why Louisiana National Guard's plan to rely on neighboring states to overcome their own personnel and equipment shortage didn't pan out.

From http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2005/20050908_2648.html:
Currently the Mississippi National Guard has more than 3,200 soldiers deployed to Iraq and more than 300 in Afghanistan. Another 60 are in and around Kuwait. And other state units are preparing to depart for duty in the U.S. Central Command theater of operations. Seventeen Mississippi National Guard soldiers have been killed in the war on terror.

Despite the force commitments from the global war on terror, Powell said, the state has more than ample personnel to cover the disaster operations. National Guard Bureau officials said Mississippi had 60 percent of its Guard force available for storm response. Guard Bureau reports indicate that 14,600 Guard personnel are in Mississippi participating in relief operations.

Alabama only has 1200 guard troops in Iraq, but that's because they can't recruit enough to fill out their allotted number. Even if all their troops were in the US, they would only be 78% manned.

From the Washington Post:
Recruiting and retention problems are worsening the strain on Guard forces in hurricane-ravaged states. Alabama's Army National Guard has a strength of 11,000 troops -- or 78 percent of the authorized number. "We're just losing too many out the back door," Arnold said.

I can understand some frustration from state and local officials. If you're reducing the ability of your own folks to respond to state emergencies because they're supporting the federal government, you'd hope the federal government would respond in kind with quick help to fill the gap. There's a mutual support role played by both the state and federal government, but only one side is paying on time.
 
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  • #87
BobG said:
A little more on why Louisiana National Guard's plan to rely on neighboring states to overcome their own personnel and equipment shortage didn't pan out.

From http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2005/20050908_2648.html:

Alabama only has 1200 guard troops in Iraq, but that's because they can't recruit enough to fill out their allotted number. Even if all their troops were in the US, they would only be 78% manned.

From the Washington Post:

I can understand some frustration from state and local officials. If you're reducing the ability of your own folks to respond to state emergencies because they're supporting the federal government, you'd hope the federal government would respond in kind with quick help to fill the gap. There's a mutual support role played by both the state and federal government, but only one side is paying on time.
So basically Americans have been left with inadequate defense of the homeland...because we are defending America in Iraq. :rolleyes:
 
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  • #88
FROM CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/09/katrina.washington/index.html

This would be much more funny if the subject matter were not so dire.

Landrieu blasts federal response

On Capitol Hill Thursday, Louisiana's senior senator, Mary Landrieu, a Democrat, blasted the federal response to Hurricane Katrina, calling it "incompetent and insulting" to the people of her state.

"The record for rebuilding will be staggering, but it will pale in comparison to the staggering incompetence of this national government," Landrieu said in a speech on the Senate floor.

She also said it was unfair to fault local and state officials for what many have described as an inadequate response to the storm.

She also faulted Bush for failing to recognize the severity of the situation when the levees broke, noting that public service announcements featuring the Mr. Bill clay animation character have been warning about such a scenario for two years.

"We know the president said 'I don't think anyone anticipated the break of the levee.' Everybody anticipated the break of the levee, Mr. President," she said. "How can it be that Mr. Bill was better informed than Mr. Bush?"
 
  • #89
Commenting on the facilities that have been set up for the evacuees -- cots crammed side-by-side in a huge stadium where the lights never go out and the sound of sobbing children never completely ceases -- former First Lady Barbara Bush concluded that the poor people of New Orleans had lucked out.

"Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this, this is working very well for them," Mrs. Bush told American Public Media's "Marketplace" program, before returning to her multi-million dollar Houston home.

On the tape of the interview, Mrs. Bush chuckles audibly as she observes just how great things are going for families that are separated from loved ones, people who have been forced to abandon their homes and the only community where they have ever lived, and parents who are explaining to children that their pets, their toys and in some cases their friends may be lost forever. Perhaps the former first lady was amusing herself with the notion that evacuees without bread could eat cake.

At the very least, she was expressing a measure of empathy commensurate with that evidenced by her son during his fly-ins for disaster-zone photo opportunities.

On Friday, when even Republican lawmakers were giving the federal government an "F" for its response to the crisis, President Bush heaped praise on embattled Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown. As thousands of victims of the hurricane continued to plead for food, water, shelter, medical care and a way out of the nightmare to which federal neglect had consigned them, Brown cheerily announced that "people are getting the help they need."

Barbara Bush's son put his arm around the addled FEMA functionary and declared, "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."
from The Nation ( http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?bid=1&pid=20080 )
 
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  • #90
Astronuc said:
from The Nation ( http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?bid=1&pid=20080 )

Good'ol Babs! Nothing like a lifetime of wealth and http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/firstladies/bb41.html to really bring out that compassion.
 
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  • #91
TRCSF said:
Russ. You're a week behind.

The lack of water and food in NOLA was witnessed by hundreds of thousands and reported live on air to millions of American households. The fact that anybody would deny it is utterly ridiculous. I'm getting contact embarassment.

Hearing you talk about facts has become like arguing a creationist.

You've said that FEMA was prepositioned. Essentially that they did their job. Now, it took three days after the storm for FEMA to get food and water to NOLA. I know you're denying it. I know you hate it. But facts is facts. So, the logically conclusion is that it takes two to three days to drive to NOLA. That's some conclusion. RCMP from Vancouver got there faster than FEMA did.

No, Russ. If you want to save face, it's time to admit the facts.

Water and food didn't get there in time.

People didn't just die because of the hurricane. They died because of a lack of response.

FEMA screwed up.

Bush screwed up.

Ah yes, blame Bush.

Not the entire:

City gov't.
Parish/County gov't.
State gov't.
Federal gov't.

Not just a triple tier of 'levees,' but a quadruple tier of levees.

The wet dirt in and around N.O. is more than thrice overpaved with gov't.

Not just bureaucracies, but...overlapping bureaucracies, because...that is what they are, that is how they do what we pay them to do.

Yet, just because we need them, and just because we have them, and just because we pay top dollar for them, does not mean they are infinitely capable, well oiled machines, incapable of being 'overwhelmed.'

'Machines,' yes. Like, let's start with the first tier, N.O. City gov't. Snicker, snicker, the 'Big Easy,' corruptly run for ...ever. Too late now, quickly overwhelmed, so the ball trickled up the layered gov't ladder. Parish/County gov't? I think that ball trickled quickly up to the State, only...not too quickly. Regional disaster? Uh-oh, we're going to have to organize cooperative efforts amoung States...Counties/Parishs...and municipalities over 90,000 square miles. Using what? Using a regional communication and transportation infrastructure system that just got wiped out. So, same thing...slowly, as bureacracies reluctantly 'stand down', admit defeat in the face of overwhelming demands, and turn over the ball/blame to the next about to be overwhelmed buraeucracy. Exactly like, a sudden rush of water from the failure of one levee breeching the next, and then breeching the next. Too much, too soon, too late, too bad.

If we're learning anything, it's that our bureacracies are mostly things that function 'well' when the Sun is Shining and all is well. When it is crunch time, the only expedient, throw the book out, emergency on the spot response is going to be up to individual heroic folks just doing what they can. Eventually, lumbering along, will come massive resources and tons of money; such as, $21B in less than a month. How many years did the "Big Dig" take? And we're going to do what in a month? With any luck, some fraction of that massively spent $21B actually makes its way to the folks in need.

In a nation that demands so little of itself, in terms of bare competence, just what the Hell do we expect from those we elect to run our expensive little Circus for us?

Well, gee, where is the emergency bullet-proof backup communication and transportation system, the one capable of not only instantly moving piles of food and water and medicine to go for 1 million people from points A-Z to points (A-Z)^10, but for organizing same? Where are all those gaspowered wireless non-electric PCs, so that folks could rely on 'AOL' and the 'unbreakable In-ter-net' to organize this massive communications effort?

o·ver·whelm ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vr-hwlm, -wlm)
tr.v. o·ver·whelmed, o·ver·whelm·ing, o·ver·whelms
To surge over and submerge; engulf: waves overwhelming the rocky shoreline.

To defeat completely and decisively: Our team overwhelmed the visitors by 40 points.
To affect deeply in mind or emotion: Despair overwhelmed me.
To present with an excessive amount: They overwhelmed us with expensive gifts.
To turn over; upset: The small craft was overwhelmed by the enormous waves.

Not just a region, but our systems were just overwhelmed. None of us have the intellectual capacity to grasp the nature of the devastation that was just unleashed on that region in the period of a single day, nor anything comparable for which we use for calibration of what is a 'reasonable' response.

All we know is, we demand service from our gov'ts and the bureaucrats who run them--if from nobody else in the country--and no matter what.

In this sequence of events, those silly assed expectations with their faulty foundations were clearly overwhelmed.

We struggle for words to describe the victims of this event. They are more than just 'refugees,' they are more like 'Displaced Persons' or, to distinguich them from victims of war, 'Disaster Displaced Persons. (DDPs)'

What we have now is, not only DDPs, but DDPPs-- Disaster Displaced Poor People. We were all happy when the Poor Were In Place in a functioning New Orleans. Barely able to care for themselves when they were 'poor in place,' they are now en masse 'poor out of place.' (Don't go there.)

And, not just temporarily, but in all likelihood, permenantly.

As we start to get hints on the horizon that we may see a day beyond 'struggle for mere survival' in NO, let's face it, will the CNN cameras really be satisfied to chronicle the restoration of many of these folks to the same state they were in before Katrina? I don't think so. Even targeting that on a time frame that would please us all would overwhelm our systems.

And yet, ironically, even if it does not happen at the speed with which we might all hope, for some of the lucky survivors, some aspects of this dispruptive cataclysm will result in exactly that; a better life.

Not because their new life is particularly wonderful, but because their previous life as poor in place in N.O. as life long dependents of the local regime was little more than 'long term bearable.'

And, in all likelihood, those will not be among the stories told by entities like CNN, because they are off script.


We'll do our best; that's all anybody can do. But both individually, as well as communally, that is not the same as perfect. Never was, never will be.
 
  • #92
Zlex said:
Ah yes, blame Bush.

Not the entire:

City gov't.
Parish/County gov't.
State gov't.
Federal gov't.

Not just a triple tier of 'levees,' but a quadruple tier of levees.

The wet dirt in and around N.O. is more than thrice overpaved with gov't.

Not just bureaucracies, but...overlapping bureaucracies, because...that is what they are, that is how they do what we pay them to do.

Yet, just because we need them, and just because we have them, and just because we pay top dollar for them, does not mean they are infinitely capable, well oiled machines, incapable of being 'overwhelmed.'

'Machines,' yes. Like, let's start with the first tier, N.O. City gov't. Snicker, snicker, the 'Big Easy,' corruptly run for ...ever. Too late now, quickly overwhelmed, so the ball trickled up the layered gov't ladder. Parish/County gov't? I think that ball trickled quickly up to the State, only...not too quickly. Regional disaster? Uh-oh, we're going to have to organize cooperative efforts amoung States...Counties/Parishs...and municipalities over 90,000 square miles. Using what? Using a regional communication and transportation infrastructure system that just got wiped out. So, same thing...slowly, as bureacracies reluctantly 'stand down', admit defeat in the face of overwhelming demands, and turn over the ball/blame to the next about to be overwhelmed buraeucracy. Exactly like, a sudden rush of water from the failure of one levee breeching the next, and then breeching the next. Too much, too soon, too late, too bad.

If we're learning anything, it's that our bureacracies are mostly things that function 'well' when the Sun is Shining and all is well. When it is crunch time, the only expedient, throw the book out, emergency on the spot response is going to be up to individual heroic folks just doing what they can. Eventually, lumbering along, will come massive resources and tons of money; such as, $21B in less than a month. How many years did the "Big Dig" take? And we're going to do what in a month? With any luck, some fraction of that massively spent $21B actually makes its way to the folks in need.

In a nation that demands so little of itself, in terms of bare competence, just what the Hell do we expect from those we elect to run our expensive little Circus for us?

Well, gee, where is the emergency bullet-proof backup communication and transportation system, the one capable of not only instantly moving piles of food and water and medicine to go for 1 million people from points A-Z to points (A-Z)^10, but for organizing same? Where are all those gaspowered wireless non-electric PCs, so that folks could rely on 'AOL' and the 'unbreakable In-ter-net' to organize this massive communications effort?

o·ver·whelm ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vr-hwlm, -wlm)
tr.v. o·ver·whelmed, o·ver·whelm·ing, o·ver·whelms
To surge over and submerge; engulf: waves overwhelming the rocky shoreline.

To defeat completely and decisively: Our team overwhelmed the visitors by 40 points.
To affect deeply in mind or emotion: Despair overwhelmed me.
To present with an excessive amount: They overwhelmed us with expensive gifts.
To turn over; upset: The small craft was overwhelmed by the enormous waves.

Not just a region, but our systems were just overwhelmed. None of us have the intellectual capacity to grasp the nature of the devastation that was just unleashed on that region in the period of a single day, nor anything comparable for which we use for calibration of what is a 'reasonable' response.

All we know is, we demand service from our gov'ts and the bureaucrats who run them--if from nobody else in the country--and no matter what.

In this sequence of events, those silly assed expectations with their faulty foundations were clearly overwhelmed.

We struggle for words to describe the victims of this event. They are more than just 'refugees,' they are more like 'Displaced Persons' or, to distinguich them from victims of war, 'Disaster Displaced Persons. (DDPs)'

What we have now is, not only DDPs, but DDPPs-- Disaster Displaced Poor People. We were all happy when the Poor Were In Place in a functioning New Orleans. Barely able to care for themselves when they were 'poor in place,' they are now en masse 'poor out of place.' (Don't go there.)

And, not just temporarily, but in all likelihood, permenantly.

As we start to get hints on the horizon that we may see a day beyond 'struggle for mere survival' in NO, let's face it, will the CNN cameras really be satisfied to chronicle the restoration of many of these folks to the same state they were in before Katrina? I don't think so. Even targeting that on a time frame that would please us all would overwhelm our systems.

And yet, ironically, even if it does not happen at the speed with which we might all hope, for some of the lucky survivors, some aspects of this dispruptive cataclysm will result in exactly that; a better life.

Not because their new life is particularly wonderful, but because their previous life as poor in place in N.O. as life long dependents of the local regime was little more than 'long term bearable.'

And, in all likelihood, those will not be among the stories told by entities like CNN, because they are off script.


We'll do our best; that's all anybody can do. But both individually, as well as communally, that is not the same as perfect. Never was, never will be.

I find it odd that you call Mayor Nagin corrupt and ignore Bush. Bush is the guy who appointed his campaign manager and his former college roommate to FEMA, if that's not corrupt, I don't know what is.

It wasn't Nagin or Blanco that cut millions of dollars to the Army Corp of Engineers and FEMA, or sent thousands of Louisiana National Guard over to Iraq. It wasn't Nagin and Blanco who sat on their hands for three days after the hurricane hit.

I know the Republican spin machine is pointing straight at Nagin and Blanco, but I've yet to see one valid criticism of the way they've handled things.

And I see you're repeating the racist, classist arguments from Barbara Bush about how these people are going to be better off now.

These people have lost their homes, their jobs, their money, their pets, their families, their friends.

To say they're better off now is beyond the pale.
 
  • #93
Blame is "weighted" in my mind, with a larger percent being directed at Bush, if for no other reason than lack of resources due to the invasion of Iraq and cuts in programs (to compensate for tax breaks and now the "death" tax? that benefit the wealthy the most). This could have happened anywhere, and I believe lack of resources and the incompetencies of FEMA still would have been seen.
 
  • #94
TRCSF said:
I find it odd that you call Mayor Nagin corrupt and ignore Bush. Bush is the guy who appointed his campaign manager and his former college roommate to FEMA, if that's not corrupt, I don't know what is.

It wasn't Nagin or Blanco that cut millions of dollars to the Army Corp of Engineers and FEMA, or sent thousands of Louisiana National Guard over to Iraq. It wasn't Nagin and Blanco who sat on their hands for three days after the hurricane hit.

I know the Republican spin machine is pointing straight at Nagin and Blanco, but I've yet to see one valid criticism of the way they've handled things.

And I see you're repeating the racist, classist arguments from Barbara Bush about how these people are going to be better off now.

These people have lost their homes, their jobs, their money, their pets, their families, their friends.

To say they're better off now is beyond the pale.

Guilty as charged; the feds are guilty of being a massive, bloated, non-agile bureacracy, filled with both heroes and slugs, saints and sinners, at exactly the same time. They are constrained by being made up of, on average, average human beings.

Ditto State, local, and city government.

But I'll bite; how do, on average, average Americans vote for and people 4 overlapping layers of government with all those layers of middle managers and bureaucrats, all scared to death to go outside the book, to break the chain of command, to stick out their neck, without employing anything other than, on average, average Americans?

And..as the details of this latest example of bureacratic sluggishness unfurl, when do you think we'll all finally admit the shame of seeing just how pathetic, on average, bureacracies peopled with average Americans are?

Remember, we all need jobs; even the less than Average American. So...how do we do this?

Bush, too, the whole bloated flabby phalynx of gov'ts.

Well, forget it; because this is how we do it, and this is what we get, becasue we can't even agree on whether Bush's dissapointment was in demanding more or demanding less of that which doesn't work.

The word 'overwhelmed' or 'overwhelming' gets used a lot in the context of this event, as reported by those on the ground.

I think sometimes when folks use that word, that think that it should mean 'nearly overwhelmed' or 'nearly overwhelming.'

But, when an event goes beyond 'nearly' and is actually 'overwhelming,' the consequences are that our systems get 'overwhelmed.' Is that stating the obvious, because that is my forte, you know?

The consequences of 'overwhelmed,' if words have meaning, are what we are seeing; clearly, many of our systems--it would be overwhelming to even list them, much less, fix them, much less, make each of them un-overwhelmable in advance--have been overwhelmed.

Our bureacracies cannot respond as fast as is needed to this overwhelming event; they are ovwerwhelmed. Safety addled people who are 24/7/365 fearful of making choices/mistakes are not all going to suddenly become laser beam focused superhuman hero warriors, efficiently cutting corners, taking risks, and throwing out the book that is too long to read in such an emergency anyway, and just magically organize into an efficient bee colony and 'get it done.'

What we are seeing is the limits of, on average, human cooperation.

So, it's reasonable only to ask, 'How can this be done 'better, faster, smarter?'

Do we need better raw materials, because we're limited by human beings as they are?

Especially, human beings in and around the hardly a little secret 'Big Easy,' where the local political machine is notoriously corrupt beyond the pale, and has been forever. Is that now just easily dismissable as being irrelevant? We tolerated that fact...forever. That has consequences.

So, was there some paternalistic State gov't that was supposed to make that somehow all allright? Or even, a paternalistic federal gov't? How, exactly, do the people of Vermont reach all the way into New Orleans to straghten their ass out, either now, after being 'overwhelmed,' or before the fact, to make the unfathmomable impervious to being overwhelmed?

We'll all be digging out those dusty academic papers now, the ones that have existed for decades describing this catastrophe. Or at least, referring to those two hour NOVA or DISCOVERY CHANNEL pieces, you know, the ones complete with CG animations of the event we are witnessing that maybe .0004% of the population would ever take time out from their busy schedules and deem to sit through, much less, take seriously, and wondering, 'Gee, why weren't the folks living in the 'Big Easy' up in arms for decades, demanding triple tiered redundant levees, and ponying up to pay for them, or at least, in the tradition of Boston's Big Dig, begging their pols to beg Congress and the rest of the also not paying attention nation to pay for them?

For a time, the situation will be 'overwheming.' Let's hope and pray and do what we can from afar(give money, at least, to those who can do)that this period is as short as is communally possible(ie, humans on average), which is not the same as humanly possible.

Gradients can really be ugly sometimes; they are uncaring things. Maybe not New Orleans proper, but a year from now, the area in and around the devastation is going to be absolutely booming with reconstruction. There will be massive displacement and heartache and tragedy, and none of that can be made whole, but at least when it comes to employment as a means to reconstruct one's life, there will be enourmous opportunities for employment in and around the region, as clearly, there is a lot of work to do. The rest of the nation will help shoulder the burden and shower the region with the cash do do it, just add sweat and creativity and on average, people will do what people do.

But, it's still overhwhelming.
 
  • #95
It's the people's fault really. It's their damn insistance on lowering taxes. What do you expect to happen to federal agencies when you vote out anyone who raises taxes?
 
  • #96
Zlex has a point. Americans (excluding the top 5%) pay a lot in taxes and expect something for it (imagine that). I would say this is why private enterprise is the way to go instead of big government. However, I have the same frustration with poor quality products or service these days, even when paying top dollar, so capitalism (free market competition) doesn't even work like it should. :bugeye:
 
  • #97
Some interesting perspectives from Daniel Schorr -

The Federal Government's 'Strange Paralysis'
All Things Considered, September 5, 2005 · NPR senior news analyst Daniel Schorr says that the government's "strange paralysis" after Hurricane Katrina has resulted in a widespread loss of confidence in government agencies and officials -- and more significantly, with the whole concept of the role of the federal government.

After Katrina, an Atmosphere of Finger-Pointing
All Things Considered, September 7, 2005 · NPR's senior news analyst has been tracking the relief efforts for Katrina -- and how the White House has handled the crisis.


And - 'Times-Picayune' Editor Jim Amoss on Assessing Blame
Fresh Air from WHYY, September 9, 2005 · Jim Amoss is editor of The Times-Picayune in New Orleans. The newspaper's staff has been publishing online from Baton Rouge since evacuating its New Orleans offices last week.

The newspaper has criticized the federal government's response to the hurricane and published an open letter to President Bush calling for the firing of all Federal Emergency Management Agency officials -- especially director Michael Brown.

In Thursday's edition, the paper detailed the step-by-step turn of events Monday, August 29, when the hurricane turned into a catastrophe. According to the report, "Top officials continued to operate for a full day under the mistaken belief that the danger had passed."
 
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  • #98
Astronuc said:
Some interesting perspectives from Daniel Schorr -

The Federal Government's 'Strange Paralysis'
All Things Considered, September 5, 2005 · NPR senior news analyst Daniel Schorr says that the government's "strange paralysis" after Hurricane Katrina has resulted in a widespread loss of confidence in government agencies and officials -- and more significantly, with the whole concept of the role of the federal government.

After Katrina, an Atmosphere of Finger-Pointing
All Things Considered, September 7, 2005 · NPR's senior news analyst has been tracking the relief efforts for Katrina -- and how the White House has handled the crisis.


And - 'Times-Picayune' Editor Jim Amoss on Assessing Blame
Fresh Air from WHYY, September 9, 2005 · Jim Amoss is editor of The Times-Picayune in New Orleans. The newspaper's staff has been publishing online from Baton Rouge since evacuating its New Orleans offices last week.

The newspaper has criticized the federal government's response to the hurricane and published an open letter to President Bush calling for the firing of all Federal Emergency Management Agency officials -- especially director Michael Brown.

In Thursday's edition, the paper detailed the step-by-step turn of events Monday, August 29, when the hurricane turned into a catastrophe. According to the report, "Top officials continued to operate for a full day under the mistaken belief that the danger had passed."

Maybe I'm hearing that All Things Considered report wrong, but that sounds really, really, really messed up.

Anybody else hear the same thing?
 
  • #99
TRCSF said:
Maybe I'm hearing that All Things Considered report wrong, but that sounds really, really, really messed up.

Anybody else hear the same thing?
Audio quality or Schorr's commentary?
 
  • #100
2CentsWorth said:
Zlex has a point. Americans (excluding the top 5%) pay a lot in taxes and expect something for it (imagine that). I would say this is why private enterprise is the way to go instead of big government. However, I have the same frustration with poor quality products or service these days, even when paying top dollar, so capitalism (free market competition) doesn't even work like it should. :bugeye:
Yes he does have a point.

But does he have any ideas as to how to fix it?

If so I would be interested in hearing them.
 

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