US Hurricane Crisis: American People's View

[TRCSF]

Here is the link about FEMA turning away Walmart trucks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05blame.html?ex=1283572800&

 

[TRCSF]

Here's the link about FEMA not letting the Red Cross deliver food

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm

 

[TRCSF]

Here's a link for FEMA asking first responders not to respond.

http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18470

 

[russ_watters]

That means that they supposedly were there on Sunday.
So why did it take until Wenesday afternoon to get water to the people in the superdoom??

Where did you hear that it took until Wednesday afternoon to get water to the Superdome? Does it say how much water they already had on hand? Does it say how many people they planned for and for how long?

The simple answer to the general question is that because of the flooding after the hurricane, they got more people than they expected after the hurricane (that's a fact) and ran out of food/water faster than they expected (that's an inference).

 

[TRCSF]

Where did you hear that it took until Wednesday afternoon to get water to the Superdome? Does it say how much water they already had on hand? Does it say how many people they planned for and for how long?

The simple answer to the general question is that because of the flooding after the hurricane, they got more people than they expected after the hurricane (that's a fact) and ran out of food/water faster than they expected (that's an inference).

So you're saying it takes two and a half days to deliver fresh water to New Orleans.

OK.

 

[edward]

Where did you hear that it took until Wednesday afternoon to get water to the Superdome? Does it say how much water they already had on hand? Does it say how many people they planned for and for how long?

From all of those people on the news who were screaming "we need water, we need food. Remember, the ones on the overpass? That was wednesday. Those in the Super dome were complaining of the same thing.

The simple answer to the general question is that because of the flooding after the hurricane, they got more people than they expected after the hurricane (that's a fact) and ran out of food/water faster than they expected (that's an inference).

The locals could /should have planned for the scenario below:

More than a million residents were "evacuated" in the table-top scenario as 120 m.p.h. winds and 20 inches of rain caused widespread flooding that supposedly trapped 300,000 people in the city.

But the flooding that was planned for was from 20 inches of rain, not the leeve situation.

Off Topic
Russ: Did you notice that it was actually a failure of the two foot thick concrete flood walls along two channels that caused the flooding. Why didn't they try to block the entrances to the channels?

 

[TRCSF]

And here come the damning internal memos...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1102744&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

This indicates that Brown:

1. didn't think it was that bad. "nearly catastropic he calls it."

2. didn't think it was that important. gave rescuers two whole days to mosey on down to NOLA.

3. Was more worried about politics than saving the lives of 10,000 + Americans.

 

[Informal Logic]

And here come the damning internal memos...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1102744&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

This indicates that Brown:

1. didn't think it was that bad. "nearly catastropic he calls it."

2. didn't think it was that important. gave rescuers two whole days to mosey on down to NOLA.

3. Was more worried about politics than saving the lives of 10,000 + Americans.

Good to see this sentence: "President Bush and Congress on Tuesday pledged separate investigations into the federal response to Katrina."

 

[Astronuc]

FEMA Chief Waited Until After Storm Hit to Ask for Help
By TED BRIDIS, AP

WASHINGTON (Sept. 7, AP) - The government's disaster chief waited until hours after Hurricane Katrina had already struck the Gulf Coast before asking his boss to dispatch 1,000 Homeland Security workers to support rescuers in the region - and gave them two days to arrive, according to internal documents.

Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, sought the approval from Homeland Security Secretary Mike Chertoff roughly five hours after Katrina made landfall on Aug. 29. Brown said that among duties of these employees was to "convey a positive image" about the government's response for victims.

Before then, FEMA had positioned smaller rescue and communications teams across the Gulf Coast. But officials acknowledged Tuesday the first department-wide appeal for help came only as the storm raged.

Brown's memo to Chertoff described Katrina as "this near catastrophic event" but otherwise lacked any urgent language. The memo politely ended, "Thank you for your consideration in helping us to meet our responsibilities."

The initial responses of the government and Brown came under escalating criticism as the breadth of destruction and death grew. President Bush and Congress on Tuesday pledged separate investigations into the federal response to Katrina. "Governments at all levels failed," said Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine.

"FEMA response and recovery operations are a top priority of the department and as we know, one of yours," Brown wrote Chertoff. He proposed sending 1,000 Homeland Security Department employees within 48 hours and 2,000 within seven days.

Knocke said the 48-hour period suggested for the Homeland employees was to ensure they had adequate training. "They were training to help the life-savers," Knocke said.

They need training in the middle of an emergency? Well, if that's planning! But then on what has DHS and FEMA been spending all those $billions?

I really like this line -

Brown said that among duties of these employees was to "convey a positive image" about the government's response for victims.

Most emergency personnel don't have time to do PR when responding to an emergency. Their actions speak for themselves.

Brown seems too concerned about image and not enough about the process - emergency response.

 

[Astronuc]

Firefighters Stuck in Atlanta for Days Awaiting Orders
'FEMA Hired the Best of the Best Firefighters ... and Gave Them Secretary Jobs'
By GREG BLUESTEIN, AP

ATLANTA (Sept. 7) - Hundreds of firefighters who volunteered to help rescue victims of Hurricane Katrina have instead been playing cards, taking classes on FEMA's history, and lounging at a local hotel as they wait for days for deployment orders.

"On the news every night you hear, 'How come everybody forgot us?'" said Joseph Manning, a firefighter from Washington, Penn. "We didn't forget. We're stuck in Atlanta drinking beer."

As of Tuesday, some of the firefighters, like Thomas Blomgren of Battle Creek, Mich., have waited at the hotel for four days. Now he and colleague Steven Richardson have been told they could be dispatched to a relief camp in South Carolina rather than help the devastated Gulf Coast.

"FEMA hired the best of the best firefighters, got them together and gave them secretary jobs," Blomgren said at the hotel near the Atlanta airport that as serving as the staging area for the firefighters.

He and Richardson said they followed FEMA's advice and brought huge packs filled with special firefighting suits, sleeping bags and lifesaving equipment to survive in harsh conditions for as long as a month. "But we'd be better off bringing pencils and cell phones," Blomgren sighed, taking a drag on his cigarrette outside the hotel.

Tony Russell, the FEMA official in charge of the firefighters, says he's trying to get the officers deployed as fast as he can but wants to make certain they're sent where the need is greatest.

 

[Art]

Firefighters Stuck in Atlanta for Days Awaiting Orders
'FEMA Hired the Best of the Best Firefighters ... and Gave Them Secretary Jobs'
By GREG BLUESTEIN, AP

I've given up bothering to post examples of incompetence. Some of the people here are so stuck in denial nothing will shift them.

I believe the saying is "There are none so blind as those that will not see"

 

[TRCSF]

Firefighters Stuck in Atlanta for Days Awaiting Orders
'FEMA Hired the Best of the Best Firefighters ... and Gave Them Secretary Jobs'
By GREG BLUESTEIN, AP

Yeah, they also flew in 50 Utah firefighters... to be used as a backdrop for Bush's photo-op in Biloxi.

There are also reports that Bush's photo-ops delayed relief elsewhere.

 

[russ_watters]

So you're saying it takes two and a half days to deliver fresh water to New Orleans.

OK.

Uh, no I didn't, I asked questions about someone else's statement. What are you reading?

And this is why I asked:

From all of those people on the news who were screaming "we need water, we need food. Remember, the ones on the overpass? That was wednesday. Those in the Super dome were complaining of the same thing.

That's a supposition based on anecdotal evidence. You don't have any real facts there on what supplies came in and when they came in, do you? That is precisely the type of thing we should be trying to avoid.

Russ: Did you notice that it was actually a failure of the two foot thick concrete flood walls along two channels that caused the flooding. Why didn't they try to block the entrances to the channels?

You mean prior to the hurricane? I guess since all the levees and locks and canals are made to roughly the same standard, there wasn't anyone weak-point known prior to the hurricane.

 

[TRCSF]

Uh, no I didn't, I asked questions about someone else's statement. What are you reading?

And this is why I asked: That's a supposition based on anecdotal evidence. You don't have any real facts there on what supplies came in and when they came in, do you? That is precisely the type of thing we should be trying to avoid. You mean prior to the hurricane? I guess since all the levees and locks and canals are made to roughly the same standard, there wasn't anyone weak-point known prior to the hurricane.

It's hard to tell what I'm reading. It doesn't make much sense.

It took two to three days for food and water to get to New Orleans. It's been confirmed by thousands of eyewitnesses and broadcast by the media all over the world.

One has to be really stupid to deny it.

 

[TRCSF]

I've given up bothering to post examples of incompetence. Some of the people here are so stuck in denial nothing will shift them.

I believe the saying is "There are none so blind as those that will not see"

Don't give up so easy. Yeah, they're stuck in denial. Yeah, they don't care about the millions of victims, probably because they're mostly poor and black.

But at least we can get the truth out there.

 

[TRCSF]

Good to see this sentence: "President Bush and Congress on Tuesday pledged separate investigations into the federal response to Katrina."

That's good to read. Unfortunately Tom Delay muttered something about it being Mayor Nagin's fault, then canceled congressional hearings on the matter.

 

[russ_watters]

It's hard to tell what I'm reading. It doesn't make much sense.

It took two to three days for food and water to get to New Orleans. It's been confirmed by thousands of eyewitnesses and broadcast by the media all over the world.

One has to be really stupid to deny it.

Have a look at the facts you have and lay out the logical basis for your conclusion. It'll make more sense then. Your conclusion does not follow from your facts because your facts are incomplete and your conclusion is directly contradicted by other facts.

What you have is a set of facts that seem to support one conclusion, not a set of facts that do directly support that conclusion and another set of facts that you are ignoring that directly contradict your conclusion. You're making an unwarranted logical leap. That, again, is the problem with anecdotal evidence.

Now then, I still would like to address this:

So you're saying it takes two and a half days to deliver fresh water to New Orleans.

Quote for me where I said that or retract it and apologize. I will not have you putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

 

[TRCSF]

Have a look at the facts you have and lay out the logical basis for your conclusion. It'll make more sense then. Your conclusion does not follow from your facts because your facts are incomplete and your conclusion is directly contradicted by other facts.

What you have is a set of facts that seem to support one conclusion, not a set of facts that do directly support that conclusion and another set of facts that you are ignoring that directly contradict your conclusion. You're making an unwarranted logical leap. That, again, is the problem with anecdotal evidence.

Now then, I still would like to address this: Quote for me where I said that or retract it and apologize. I will not have you putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

Russ. You're a week behind.

The lack of water and food in NOLA was witnessed by hundreds of thousands and reported live on air to millions of American households. The fact that anybody would deny it is utterly ridiculous. I'm getting contact embarassment.

Hearing you talk about facts has become like arguing a creationist.

You've said that FEMA was prepositioned. Essentially that they did their job. Now, it took three days after the storm for FEMA to get food and water to NOLA. I know you're denying it. I know you hate it. But facts is facts. So, the logically conclusion is that it takes two to three days to drive to NOLA. That's some conclusion. RCMP from Vancouver got there faster than FEMA did.

No, Russ. If you want to save face, it's time to admit the facts.

Water and food didn't get there in time.

People didn't just die because of the hurricane. They died because of a lack of response.

FEMA screwed up.

Bush screwed up.

 

[Informal Logic]

As posted before, the difficulty in obtaining facts at this time is due in large part to poor news reporting. Here is an article on that very topic:

News You Can Lose
What I hate about cable TV journalism.
By Jack Shafer
Posted Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005

http://slate.msn.com/id/2125683/?GT1=6900

In the meantime, it is not the end of the world, and nit picky debate is a waste of BTUs.

 

[TRCSF]

In the meantime, it is not the end of the world, and nit picky debate is a waste of BTUs.

No, it's not the end of the world.

But it is the largest single displacement of Americans since the Civil War.

It's worse than the 1906 San Fran earthquake, worse than the Great Chicago Fire, worse than the Dust Bowl, and way worse than 9-11.

 

[TRCSF]

As posted before, the difficulty in obtaining facts at this time is due in large part to poor news reporting. Here is an article on that very topic:

News You Can Lose
What I hate about cable TV journalism.
By Jack Shafer
Posted Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005

http://slate.msn.com/id/2125683/?GT1=6900

QUOTE]

Considering the focus of media on that missing Aruba girl for the last three months, I've been fairly surprised that they're doing a mostly professional job in NOLA.

One can't hold the media accountable for not being aware of the most obvious facts.

 

[Astronuc]

That's a good article!

… hate it when the news networks pair music with montages of newsworthy footage.

… hate the use of undated footage, especially when it's two or three days old

… hate the conspicuous lack of maps illustrating where the camera and reporters are . . .

… hate the absence of context and continuity . . .

Yep

 

[Informal Logic]

No, it's not the end of the world.

But it is the largest single displacement of Americans since the Civil War.

It's worse than the 1906 San Fran earthquake, worse than the Great Chicago Fire, worse than the Dust Bowl, and way worse than 9-11.

It is not my intention to minimize the seriousness of this disaster. I only mean it is not the end of the world if we don't have all the facts at this time, so throwing annal fits are a waste of BTUs.

The Aruba story is another good example of crappy journalism. Still, if the reports of Katrina were better done there wouldn't be so much confusion about the timeline, agency responsibilities, etc.

 

[Art]

Compassionate conservatism - This is getting a lot of negative attention in the UK

MA BUSH IN EVACUEES ROW

Barbara Bush had come under fire for saying some of the Hurricane Katrina evacuees are better off now than before the storm.

Her remarks came as President George Bush - her son - faced growing criticism over his response to the crisis.

Mrs Bush made her comments after touring the Astrodome complex in Houston, where thousands of survivors are being cared for.

She told a radio interviewer that many "were undeprivileged anyway" and were in no hurry to leave.

"What I'm hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in," Mrs Bush said.

"Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality.

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them."

Mrs Bush and former president George Bush were visiting the astrodome to help boost morale and raise money for the rebuilding effort.

White House officials have declined to comment on her remarks.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13431861,00.html

These are some of the people Ma Bush believes are now better off -

EFFORTS TO REUNITE KIDS

Pictures of hundreds of children who are searching for their parents after Hurricane Katrina have been posted on a website in the United States.

The site lists more than 600 youngsters and was set up by the National Centre for Missing and Exploited Children.

Ernie Allen, NCMEC president, said staff were touring shelters in Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas, using digital cameras to take photographs of those separated from their families.

One picture is of toddler Kiarra Roberts. All that is known of her is that she was found on September 5.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13432053,00.html

 

[SOS2008]

Here is a site that has a timeline, though I'm not familiar with it, the information appears legitimate, and is filled with links to reliable sources:

Katrina Timeline: Why Bush is to blame for disaster
http://www.ledgeofliberty.com/2005/09/katrina_timelin.html

Edit: Here's another one: http://www.bushwatch.net/disaster.htm

 

[BobG]

A little more on why Louisiana National Guard's plan to rely on neighboring states to overcome their own personnel and equipment shortage didn't pan out.

From http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2005/20050908_2648.html:

Currently the Mississippi National Guard has more than 3,200 soldiers deployed to Iraq and more than 300 in Afghanistan. Another 60 are in and around Kuwait. And other state units are preparing to depart for duty in the U.S. Central Command theater of operations. Seventeen Mississippi National Guard soldiers have been killed in the war on terror.

Despite the force commitments from the global war on terror, Powell said, the state has more than ample personnel to cover the disaster operations. National Guard Bureau officials said Mississippi had 60 percent of its Guard force available for storm response. Guard Bureau reports indicate that 14,600 Guard personnel are in Mississippi participating in relief operations.

Alabama only has 1200 guard troops in Iraq, but that's because they can't recruit enough to fill out their allotted number. Even if all their troops were in the US, they would only be 78% manned.

From the Washington Post:

Recruiting and retention problems are worsening the strain on Guard forces in hurricane-ravaged states. Alabama's Army National Guard has a strength of 11,000 troops -- or 78 percent of the authorized number. "We're just losing too many out the back door," Arnold said.

I can understand some frustration from state and local officials. If you're reducing the ability of your own folks to respond to state emergencies because they're supporting the federal government, you'd hope the federal government would respond in kind with quick help to fill the gap. There's a mutual support role played by both the state and federal government, but only one side is paying on time.

 

[SOS2008]

A little more on why Louisiana National Guard's plan to rely on neighboring states to overcome their own personnel and equipment shortage didn't pan out.

From http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2005/20050908_2648.html:

Alabama only has 1200 guard troops in Iraq, but that's because they can't recruit enough to fill out their allotted number. Even if all their troops were in the US, they would only be 78% manned.

From the Washington Post:

I can understand some frustration from state and local officials. If you're reducing the ability of your own folks to respond to state emergencies because they're supporting the federal government, you'd hope the federal government would respond in kind with quick help to fill the gap. There's a mutual support role played by both the state and federal government, but only one side is paying on time.

So basically Americans have been left with inadequate defense of the homeland...because we are defending America in Iraq.

 

[faust9]

FROM CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/09/katrina.washington/index.html

This would be much more funny if the subject matter were not so dire.

Landrieu blasts federal response

On Capitol Hill Thursday, Louisiana's senior senator, Mary Landrieu, a Democrat, blasted the federal response to Hurricane Katrina, calling it "incompetent and insulting" to the people of her state.

"The record for rebuilding will be staggering, but it will pale in comparison to the staggering incompetence of this national government," Landrieu said in a speech on the Senate floor.

She also said it was unfair to fault local and state officials for what many have described as an inadequate response to the storm.

She also faulted Bush for failing to recognize the severity of the situation when the levees broke, noting that public service announcements featuring the Mr. Bill clay animation character have been warning about such a scenario for two years.

"We know the president said 'I don't think anyone anticipated the break of the levee.' Everybody anticipated the break of the levee, Mr. President," she said. "How can it be that Mr. Bill was better informed than Mr. Bush?"

 

[Astronuc]

Commenting on the facilities that have been set up for the evacuees -- cots crammed side-by-side in a huge stadium where the lights never go out and the sound of sobbing children never completely ceases -- former First Lady Barbara Bush concluded that the poor people of New Orleans had lucked out.

"Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this, this is working very well for them," Mrs. Bush told American Public Media's "Marketplace" program, before returning to her multi-million dollar Houston home.

On the tape of the interview, Mrs. Bush chuckles audibly as she observes just how great things are going for families that are separated from loved ones, people who have been forced to abandon their homes and the only community where they have ever lived, and parents who are explaining to children that their pets, their toys and in some cases their friends may be lost forever. Perhaps the former first lady was amusing herself with the notion that evacuees without bread could eat cake.

At the very least, she was expressing a measure of empathy commensurate with that evidenced by her son during his fly-ins for disaster-zone photo opportunities.

On Friday, when even Republican lawmakers were giving the federal government an "F" for its response to the crisis, President Bush heaped praise on embattled Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown. As thousands of victims of the hurricane continued to plead for food, water, shelter, medical care and a way out of the nightmare to which federal neglect had consigned them, Brown cheerily announced that "people are getting the help they need."

Barbara Bush's son put his arm around the addled FEMA functionary and declared, "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."

from The Nation ( http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?bid=1&pid=20080 )

 

[faust9]

from The Nation ( http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?bid=1&pid=20080 )

Good'ol Babs! Nothing like a lifetime of wealth and http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/firstladies/bb41.html to really bring out that compassion.