News USA Presidential Debate #2 Observations

[russ_watters]

The first was a WH press release...

You posted this quote:

U.S. sources said...

Your claim about it is doubly wrong:

1. That's not a press release. That's a paraphrase of an unnamed source. A press release is a memo written on official letterhead and send to the media, either digitally or on paper. From the White House, they look like this: http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-and-releases

If I'm misunderstanding you and there's one in there on the subject, please show it to me.

2. Typically, an unnamed source from the White House is labeled as a White House (or administration) source:
https://www.google.com/search?q="wh...&sugexp=chrome,mod=0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
https://www.google.com/search?q="ad...f1cba9759f1241&bpcl=35440803&biw=1306&bih=655
The fact that the CNN article just says "government source" implies that it was not a White House source.

No, I'm saying if someone on his staff made comments that appeared to contradict what the Presdient said, then post them. Stop twisiting my words.

I'm not twisting your words, Evo, it honestly didn't occur to me that after multiple posts about this in two threads, plus discussion of it in the debate, you still wouldn't know what we're talking about. The first time I sourced this was three days ago, here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=643237&page=5&highlight=Rice

You responded to just about everything else in the post except the part that directly contradicted you. I'll post it again for you:

What sparked the violence was a very hateful video on the Internet," Rice said on "Fox News Sunday." "It was a reaction to a video that had nothing to do with the United States. ... What happened initially was that it was a spontaneous reaction to what had just transpired in Cairo as a consequence of the video. People gathered outside the embassy and then it grew very violent. And those with extremist ties joined the fray and came with heavy weapons, which unfortunately are quite common in post-revolutionary Libya, and that then spun out of control.”

http://thehill.com/blogs/global-aff...-refute-administration-claims-on-libya-attack

In the debate transcript that collinsmark linked, as part of the discussion collinsmark posted, Romney is trying to get out Rice's message but Obama and Crowley are shouting him down. Given that Obama got more talking time than Romney did in the debate, Crowley did Obama a big favor in both making Obama's argument for him and keeping Romney from making his, that helped turn the debate in his direction.

Please acknowledge that you have read the above quote from Rice, Evo. The rest of your post is moot anyway until after you've read it and had a chance to correct the rest of the post.

 

[edward]

Apparently Romney didn't remember how he got the binder full of women. In actuality MASSGAP gave him the names.

MassGAP -
Moving Women Forward
The Massachusetts Government Appointments Project (MassGAP) was founded in 2002 as a bi-partisan coalition of women’s groups whose purpose is to increase the number of women appointed by the new governor to senior-level cabinet positions, agency heads and selected authorities and commissions in the Commonwealth. The Massachusetts Women’s Political Caucus (MWPC) is the Lead Sponsor of this coalition.

http://www.massgap.org/

The nonpartisan Massachusetts Women’s Political Caucus says in a statement that it instigated the process of bringing more women into state government before Romney took office — and that Romney fell off in appointing women to senior positions later in his term.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/10/17/massgap-responds-to-mitt-romney-on-women-appointees/

 

[Pythagorean]

Meanwhile, outside the doors of the debate building, a publicity stunt by the green party:

http://www.care2.com/causes/green-party-candidate-jill-stein-arrested-at-presidential-debate.html

 

[Evo]

You posted this quote: Your claim about it is doubly wrong:

1. That's not a press release. That's a paraphrase of an unnamed source. A press release is a memo written on official letterhead and send to the media, either digitally or on paper. From the White House, they look like this: http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-and-releases

If I'm misunderstanding you and there's one in there on the subject, please show it to me.

LOL. Please explain why it matters. :p Here is the update I mentioned that linked me to the news article I posted. Please explain how what I call it changes the content.

Original article update with link.

UPDATE: U.S. officials have told The New York Times and CNN that the deadly consulate attack in Benghazi, Libya, which killed U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens, may have been planned in advance.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...ens-ambassador-to-libya-killed_n_1876544.html

Which lead me to the article I posted.

But U.S. sources said Wednesday the four-hour assault in Benghazi had been planned, with the attackers using the protest as a diversion.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-10-10/world/world_libya-attack-statements_1_libya-attack-actionable-intelligence-benghazi/3

You responded to just about everything else in the post except the part that directly contradicted you. I'll post it again for you: http://thehill.com/blogs/global-aff...-refute-administration-claims-on-libya-attack

That article doesn't have a transcript or video, so it's not worth addressing since we have no idea in which context anything was said and what the reporter asked that prompted replies. I want to see or read the actual interview. What Susan Rice says doesn't trump what the President said, and we DO have the transcript of what he said on the 12th.

No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for. Today we mourn four more Americans who represent the very best of the United States of America. We will not waver in our commitment to see that justice is done for this terrible act. And make no mistake, justice will be done.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...marks-president-deaths-us-embassy-staff-libya

This was in response to this.

In addition, there is the issue of the bad information the administration fed us for weeks after the incident regarding the nature of the incident and the continuing weaseling on that point. Characterizing the attack as growing out of a protest when no protest even existed was a pretty big - and pretty specific - miss, and the protracted struggle with pulling the truth out of the administration when media (first, Fox) had been reporting it for weeks looks like lying to us for political purposes (to suppress the idea that al Qaeda is still a significant threat despite Obama's efforts). And that is on Obama himself.

If you had read mainstream news, you would have known on the 12th that the President said it was an act of terror.

A spokesperson for Ambassador Rice told CBS News that she was given those speaking points by the intelligence community, not by the State Department.

So I don't know who you are blaming here. Rice? Ok, I'll agree she may not have had accurate information, but she wasn't sent out by the WH with it.

 

[edward]

There was more going on in Benghazi than most people seem to be aware of.

Issa's investigation blew the cover of the CIA.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...3136ca-132b-11e2-ba83-a7a396e6b2a7_story.html

There were fewer security personnel because Libyan leaders did not allow our private security firm in the country. Yes we do use private companies in high risk areas.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/49400090/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/

I just read that both Shell and BP went back into Libya in April. They must have thought it was safe.

I have never posted a link to a French news source before, but they knew a lot more than we did early on. They still have sources on the ground, yet a lot of it was a mystery to them.

http://www.france24.com/en/20120917...azi&ns_fee=0&gclid=CM6G-fjniLMCFUfNOgodoTgAmw

 

[Astronuc]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/...ney-over-jobs-energy-024727253--election.html

http://news.yahoo.com/sidelines-debate-moderator-crowley-becomes-part-story-061946975.html
Republicans complain that CNN’s Candy Crowley sided with Obama during a key debate moment

"I don't complain about the refs," said campaign senior adviser Eric Fehrnstrom. "I think Candy was dandy."

http://news.yahoo.com/fact-check-stumbles-latest-presidential-debate-015330844--election.html


I thought Romney sounded better prepared. Obama didn't seem ready to challenge Romney, particularly on energy or jobs. I listened from a distance because I was working on more important things. My daughter was ranting about both candidates not answering the questions directly, but spinning off in other irrelevant directions.

 

[russ_watters]

That article doesn't have a transcript or video, so it's not worth addressing since we have no idea in which context anything was said and what the reporter asked that prompted replies. I want to see or read the actual interview.

Completely unreasonable request, but still, here's two, with the first one being the one quoted previously:
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/fox-news-sunday/2012/09/16/amb-susan-rice-rep-mike-rogers-discuss-violence-against-americans-middle-east#p//v/1843960658001
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/week...ons-susan-rice/story?id=17240933#.UH98v8XLTwY

The context of the ABC interview actually makes it worse. The interviewer starts off the interview by trying to lead her in the right direction by mentioning al Qaeda and instead she turns and goes in the wrong direction:

TAPPER: So, first of all, what is the latest you can tell us on who these attackers were at the embassy or at the consulate in Benghazi? We're hearing that the Libyans have arrested people. They're saying that some people involved were from outside the country, that there might have even been Al Qaida ties. What's the latest information?

RICE: Well, Jake, first of all, it's important to know that there's an FBI investigation that has begun and will take some time to be completed. That will tell us with certainty what transpired.

But our current best assessment, based on the information that we have at present, is that, in fact, what this began as, it was a spontaneous -- not a premeditated -- response to what had transpired in Cairo. In Cairo, as you know, a few hours earlier, there was a violent protest that was undertaken in reaction to this very offensive video that was disseminated.

We believe that folks in Benghazi, a small number of people came to the embassy to -- or to the consulate, rather, to replicate the sort of challenge that was posed in Cairo. And then as that unfolded, it seems to have been hijacked, let us say, by some individual clusters of extremists who came with heavier weapons, weapons that as you know in -- in the wake of the revolution in Libya are -- are quite common and accessible. And it then evolved from there.

 

[Evo]

Russ, read this and hopefully this will help to clarify what I've been saying, my apologies if it hasn't been clear.

Obama stated from the beginning it was an act of terror..I'm right there.

Some of his staff went off with information they did not get from the WH and confused the issue - you're right.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/17/politics/fact-check-terror/index.html

We're both right.

 

[Evo]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/...ney-over-jobs-energy-024727253--election.html

http://news.yahoo.com/sidelines-debate-moderator-crowley-becomes-part-story-061946975.html
Republicans complain that CNN’s Candy Crowley sided with Obama during a key debate moment

"I don't complain about the refs," said campaign senior adviser Eric Fehrnstrom. "I think Candy was dandy."

http://news.yahoo.com/fact-check-stumbles-latest-presidential-debate-015330844--election.html


I thought Romney sounded better prepared. Obama didn't seem ready to challenge Romney, particularly on energy or jobs. I listened from a distance because I was working on more important things.

But as you've said in chat, Romney will destroy this country if elected, to paraphrase.

 

[russ_watters]

No, Evo, you're only right insofar as you were saying something true that wasn't in question (what Obama said on 9/12) as a way to contradict something that was also true. But you also made about half a dozen different wrong claims including the bizarre claim that the media made up the interviews that I posted above.

 

[russ_watters]

But as you've said in chat, Romney will destroy this country if elected, to paraphrase.

That doesn't mean Astronuc can't still objectively step back and analyze some of this! A mature/gracious sports fan acknowledges when the ref made a bad call in their favor!

 

[Evo]

But you also made about half a dozen different wrong claims including the bizarre claim that the media made up the interviews that I posted above.

Go back and read, I said without reading the actual transcripts or watching the videos I can't tell if something was taken out of context or was an answer to a reporter's question.

I found where Rice admitted that what she said did not come from the WH, it came from "intelligence sources".

CNN Fact Check: A day after Libya attack, Obama described it as 'acts of terror'

(CNN) -- President Barack Obama said he identified the September 11 assault on the U.S. Consulate in Libya as a terrorist attack within a day; former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney said it took two weeks.

The claim: "The day after the attack, governor, I stood in the Rose Garden and I told the American people in the world that we are going to find out exactly what happened," Obama said. "That this was an act of terror and I also said that we're going to hunt down those who committed this crime."

The counterclaim: "It took the president 14 days before he called
the attack in Benghazi an act of terror," Romney responded moments later.

The facts: On September 12, the day after the attack that killed four Americans, including U.S. Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens, Obama said in comments in the Rose Garden that he had learned about the attack on the consulate the night before.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/17/politics/fact-check-terror/index.html

 

[mathwonk]

Re: binders of women:http://blogs.ajc.com/mike-luckovich/2012/10/17/1018-mike-luckovich-cartoon-binders-of-women/

 

[mheslep]

In that 9/12 Rose Garden statement where the President used the phrase "acts of terror", he also said, a few paragraphs prior:

...Since our founding, the United States has been a nation that respects all faiths. We reject all efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others. But there is absolutely no justification to this type of senseless violence. None.

so the Rose Garden statement appears to vaguely cover all the possibilities, terror attack and 'senseless' mob retribution for the video insult to Islam.

 

[Jack21222]

In that 9/12 Rose Garden statement where the President used the phrase "acts of terror", he also said, a few paragraphs prior:



so the Rose Garden statement appears to vaguely cover all the possibilities, terror attack and 'senseless' mob retribution for the video insult to Islam.

Weren't there two separate incidents on 9/11? One in Egypt and one in Libya? Is it possible he was addressing both of them in the same speech? I actually haven't seen the speech myself. It is my understanding that there were protests in Egypt about this silly video.

 

[Evo]

In that 9/12 Rose Garden statement where the President used the phrase "acts of terror", he also said, a few paragraphs prior:



so the Rose Garden statement appears to vaguely cover all the possibilities, terror attack and 'senseless' mob retribution for the video insult to Islam.

Both had happened the day before.

By the 14th, violence had spread to 20 countries due to the film, with two additional embassies breached.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/15/w...r-film-enter-4th-day.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

But I'm getting off topic from the debate.

 

[mheslep]

Weren't there two separate incidents on 9/11? One in Egypt and one in Libya? Is it possible he was addressing both of them in the same speech? I actually haven't seen the speech myself. It is my understanding that there were protests in Egypt about this silly video.

The text of the speech is ambiguous with respect to any time or action, so it would be hard to rule out any given external reference or prove inclusion.

Yes, the US embassy in Cairo was protested on 9/11, the embassy flag was torn down, some protesters scaled the embassy wall, but no embassy personnel were reported injured. As far as I know nothing happened at the Cairo embassy that would justify the label of 'senseless violence' from the US President, unlike the murders in Benghazi.
http://content.usatoday.com/communi...ters-prophet-mohammad/70000126/1#.UH-QZsXXaqJ

 

[Evo]

The text of the speech is ambiguous with respect to any time or action, so it would be hard to rule out any given external reference or prove inclusion.

Yes, the US embassy in Cairo was protested on 9/11, the embassy flag was torn down, some protesters scaled the embassy wall, but no embassy personnel were reported injured. As far as I know nothing happened at the Cairo embassy that would justify the label of 'senseless violence' from the US President, unlike the murders in Benghazi.
http://content.usatoday.com/communi...ters-prophet-mohammad/70000126/1#.UH-QZsXXaqJ

Don't forget, there was also a violent mob in Libya, whether it was spontaneous and completely separate from the planned attack, I haven't heard for certain. We do know the attack that killed our people was pre-planned.

In Libya, witnesses say members of a radical Islamist group called Ansar al-Sharia protested near the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, where NATO jets established no-fly zones last year to halt ground attacks from then-Libyan strongman Moammar Gadhafi.

The group then clashed with security forces in the city, blocking roads leading to the consulate, witnesses said.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/11/world/meast/egpyt-us-embassy-protests/index.html

 

[Mentalist]

I thought Romney sounded better prepared.

Romney sounded the same. "Not going to raise taxes on the rich because they pay 60%"?

Then once the middle class gets the tax cut, who is going to have to pay for that tax cut if the rich aren't? Oh! The poor.

Romney doesn't even pay income taxes so he is looking to gain here whilst the burden shifts to the poor to pay for his obvious tax exemptions. Unfortunately, I am too broke to risk this man getting elected as he said he'd like to eliminate pell grants to which I rely upon now for school. He just is too much of a risk and his obvious war mongering stance on Iran is despicable.

What he said in the debate last night about increasing loans and pell grants because he believes in its growth is a blatant lie. He said a few months ago:

For instance, as a result of the expanding entitlement mentality, the Pell Grant program—the foundation of the federal investment in student financial aid—is on unsure financial footing. To keep up with the program’s massive increases, the government has been forced to take steps such as eliminating subsidized loans for graduate students. A Romney Administration will refocus Pell Grant dollars on the students that need them most and place the program on a responsible long-term path that avoids future funding cliffs and last-minute funding patches.

This was in May 2012, and he expects me to believe him now? Does this guy think students are this dumb to take such spiel he gave us in last nights debate as fact? Oh! and the insult upon injury is he calls it, "entitlement mentality"... This is nothing new. Mitt only cares about his donors. Typical tribal mentality.

 

[Oltz]

Did you miss the part where he said the actual taxes paid by the top 5-10% would not be reduced at all so they would still be paying 60% of total collected revenue mentalist the rates would just be lower with offsetting reduction in deductions. Plus you are assuming spending stays at its present unsustainable level.

"Now, how about deductions? 'Cause I'm going to bring rates down across the board for everybody, but I'm going to limit deductions and exemptions and credits, particularly for people at the high end, because I am not going to have people at the high end pay less than they're paying now.

The top 5 percent of taxpayers will continue to pay 60 percent of the income tax the nation collects. So that'll stay the same.

Middle-income people are going to get a tax break."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10/16/transcript-second-presidential-debate/#ixzz29eW3HKm2

Pell grants are part of the reason we have an education bubble right now. Its the same as the housing bubble easy to get loans are driving the institutions to raise prices because the money is available. Reduce the grants and school prices will come down to maintain enrollment numbers. Get a personal loan instead of a grant.

 

[daveb]

Romney was very careful to say 60% of collected revenue. If taxes for the middle class go down, then total revenue will decrease unless someone else makes up the difference. If revenue decrease, then the upper income workers will pay a higher % of revenue collected. So saying they will continue to pay 60% sounds like he means their taxes will decrease also (by some unspecified amount).

So let's look at some hypothetical numbers. Suppose the government collects 1 trillion dollars now from 100 million people. The rich (1% is 1 million) pay (collectively) 600 billion, and the rest pay 400 billion. If taxes are cut 20% (total collected now 800 billion) and the elimination of deductions occurs such that the rich continue to pay 60% of what is collected, the rich would pay 480 billion, and the rest would pay 320 billion.

That's a savings of 120 billion for the rich, spread over a small number ( average 120,000 per person), and 80 billion for the rest of us spread over a larger number (average 808 per person).

Of course this is a very simplified look at things, but it points out that from an individual perspective, the rich get a larger tax break than the middle class (the point the democrats make).

 

[MacLaddy]

"Now, how about deductions? 'Cause I'm going to bring rates down across the board for everybody, but I'm going to limit deductions and exemptions and credits, particularly for people at the high end, because I am not going to have people at the high end pay less than they're paying now.

The top 5 percent of taxpayers will continue to pay 60 percent of the income tax the nation collects. So that'll stay the same.

Please provide us with some sources for this information, specifically what deductions he will be cutting and by how much. I would also like to see a tax bracket explaining his tax plan.

Pell grants are part of the reason we have an education bubble right now. Its the same as the housing bubble easy to get loans are driving the institutions to raise prices because the money is available. Reduce the grants and school prices will come down to maintain enrollment numbers. Get a personal loan instead of a grant.

Or... eliminate the bankruptcy exemptions that is given to lenders and schools, and reinstate bankruptcy protection for students on student loans. If this industry had the same bankruptcy laws that every other industry in this country has then it would strive mighty hard to keep prices low.

 

[Oltz]

Daveb can you give any source at all for any plan Obama has for his next term? People cry for details from Romney when Obama is the king of vague plans and hand waving.

And again Romney has a detailed PDF he put out in the Primaries giving far more information then anything I have ever seen from Obama

http://www.mittromney.com/sites/default/files/shared/BelieveInAmerica-PlanForJobsAndEconomicGrowth-Full.pdf

You do realize in your crude example the rich are paying 600,000 apiece and the middle class are paying 4,040 so you are saying they should pay less then that and the "rich" should still pay 600,000 a piece?

the second part of your scenario is 480,000 and 3,232 still seems like a large share to me.

By the way the tax break is the same percent so how is it a larger tax break? Pure quantity wise it is but remember we have a progressive tax code so the "rich" will still be paying a large share of their income.

Please DO not bring in capital gains or payroll taxes to muddy the waters if we need yet another thread about those start a new one.

I think Pell grants should exit but I think to much money is being thrown at higher education right now and it is over inflated the bubble needs to burst. Better to control it then allow it to collapse under its own weight.

 

[Evo]

Daveb can you give any source at all for any plan Obama has for his next term? People cry for details from Romney when Obama is the king of vague plans and hand waving.

Here's how Romney's tax plan will ACTUALLY work.

Romney's tax cut

The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, a joint project of the Urban Institute and Brookings Institution, has said the Romney proposal would cost $360 billion in the first year before it is offset by closing loopholes, which others have extrapolated to estimate that it would amount to $5 trillion over the decade.

The report said the loopholes – popular deductions including those for mortgage interest, charitable giving and others – are not plentiful enough at the top of the income scale to cover the estimated $360-billion annual cost of reducing tax rates by 20%.

The gap would need to be filled by closing loopholes for those at lower ends of the income scale, those earning less than $200,000. Estimates say those earning between $100,000 and $200,000 would be significantly hit.

Also, the report said the trade-off between lower rates and loopholes would benefit higher-income households, which would see their overall tax burden go down while middle- and lower-income households would see their taxes rise.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-fact-check-debate-romney-tax-20121003,0,3813713.story

 

[Oltz]

Daveb can you give any source at all for any plan Obama has for his next term? People cry for details from Romney when Obama is the king of vague plans and hand waving.

Here's how Romney's tax plan will ACTUALLY work.

Romney's tax cut
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-fact-check-debate-romney-tax-20121003,0,3813713.story

Except that Romney said that Deductions would be capped for upper income earners so they still end up paying the same % as now the "gap" could just as easily be closed by cutting spending so there is no Gap or by doing what Obama does and borrowing the money until we "grow out of it" The point is allot of assumptions are made in that estimate that can easily be wrong or right you and I have no way of knowing. Just because they are non partisan does not mean they can see the future.

I think the specific quote I posted earlier from Romney saying he would not allow the burden of 60% for the top 5% of earners to decrease supersedes the estimates made 3 weeks ago that do not even take into account any growth in the economy as it says in the last sentence of your link.

So maybe you should rephrase to here is how one sources THINKS (or estimates or whatever) Romney's tax MIGHT ACTUALLY (based on some large assumptions with admittedly missing details) work since it is not fact.

 

[renz]

I don't have much background, but I am trying to understand Romney's tax plan.
He said (from the first debate) that his tax plan is revenue neutral. And from the second debate he said the top 5 percent of taxpayers will continue to pay 60 percent of the income tax while the middle income will get a tax cut. So for it to be revenue neutral the balance has to come from somewhere.
I didn't get a clear picture about if he will eliminate some deductions that will affect the middle class.

So how is it going to be revenue neutral?

 

[daveb]

Daveb can you give any source at all for any plan Obama has for his next term? People cry for details from Romney when Obama is the king of vague plans and hand waving.

Why should I? I never claimed anything about Obama.

You do realize in your crude example the rich are paying 600,000 apiece and the middle class are paying 4,040 so you are saying they should pay less then that and the "rich" should still pay 600,000 a piece?

No, I'm not saying anything about "should".

By the way the tax break is the same percent so how is it a larger tax break?

It's a tax break because for those in the 40% tax bracket, a 20% cut means they recover 8%of their income (paying 32% now), whereas those in the 20% bracket only recover 4% (now paying 16%). Essentially, it makes the system less of a progressive tax system. If the rich are going to have deductions capped, why not just not give them the tax break and let them keep their deductions if they're going to pay the same amount anyway? Is it just so that those rich who don't take deducations end up paying less than they otherwise would? If the same amount of money is paid, then who cares whether it's due to a higher tax rate or the elimination of deductions? If they aren't paying the same amount, then Romney is being disingenuous when he says they won't get a tax break.

Please DO not bring in capital gains or payroll taxes to muddy the waters if we need yet another thread about those start a new one.

I think Pell grants should exit but I think to much money is being thrown at higher education right now and it is over inflated the bubble needs to burst. Better to control it then allow it to collapse under its own weight.

I wasn't planning on talking about these, so why would you bring them up?

 

[daveb]

I don't have much background, but I am trying to understand Romney's tax plan.
He said (from the first debate) that his tax plan is revenue neutral. And from the second debate he said the top 5 percent of taxpayers will continue to pay 60 percent of the income tax while the middle income will get a tax cut. So for it to be revenue neutral the balance has to come from somewhere.
I didn't get a clear picture about if he will eliminate some deductions that will affect the middle class.

So how is it going to be revenue neutral?

Another good point. If middle class taxes go down, someone else's must increase (for it to be revenue neutral). But Romney signed on to Grover Norquist's pledge not to raise taxes. So either it isn't revenue neutral, he has to beak a promise, or the money has to come from somewhere else.

 

[mheslep]

I don't have much background, but I am trying to understand Romney's tax plan.
He said (from the first debate) that his tax plan is revenue neutral. And from the second debate he said the top 5 percent of taxpayers will continue to pay 60 percent of the income tax while the middle income will get a tax cut. So for it to be revenue neutral the balance has to come from somewhere.
I didn't get a clear picture about if he will eliminate some deductions that will affect the middle class.

So how is it going to be revenue neutral?

The Tax Foundation has a detailed description and accounting, out a couple days ago.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=4119837&postcount=32

For the most part Romney/Ryan do not offer tax cuts, they propose to cut the marginal tax rate, and, at the same time, eliminate or shrink deductions/loopholes. The Simpson Bowles commission came up with similar plans two years ago.

restricting a variety of tax deductions such as the home mortgage interest deduction and the deduction for employer-provided healthcare benefits.

The point of the latter is to broaden the base of actual tax payers, so that, for instance, a General Electric that pays no or little tax because of ample deductions has to pay under Romney/Ryan but at a low rate. The point of the former, rate reduction, is to encourage output by decreasing the penalty on the next dollar earned.

 

[mheslep]

... If the rich are going to have deductions capped, why not just not give them the tax break and let them keep their deductions if they're going to pay the same amount anyway? ...

As others have asked elsewhere:

I'd like to know this answer as well. If you're revenue neutral, outside of a simpler 1040, what's the economic incentive? I can see the new tax policy disproportionately benefits some payers with lower deductions, who gain incentive, but revenue neutral means there are losers as well.

Thanks for asking! This is the most important point. In economics "how much money you have in your pocket" is really a secondary question to the overall economy (I know it matters to you!)
What matters is, if you (say) work an extra day, how much more money do you get to keep? If you get paid $100 per day, but the government takes half, then you keep $50. If it takes a third, then you keep $66, and are more likely to work that extra day rather than go home and watch the ball game. A revenue-neutral tax reform lowers this marginal rate, but eliminates deductions so you end up paying the same amount overall.
Why not "put more money in your pocket?" reduce the rate and let you keep the deduction? Yes, that would be even better. But the government is broke and needs the money.
Why does putting money in your pocket not really affect the economy overall? Because mostly the government takes your money and gives it to someone else to spend. You spend more, he or she spends less. You like it, but it's not much difference overall.
Margins matter to economics.

http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2012/10/dynamic-tax-scoring.html#more

 

[Oltz]

Here is another question the "Bush/Obama" Tax cuts expire at the end of the year does anyone know if the 20% rate reduction is on top of the tax cuts or if it is after they revert to the previous levels?

The Bush tax cuts were:
original Bush cuts 20% w/o cuts 20% w/ cuts
39.6 35 31.68 28
36 33 28.8 26.4
31 28 24.8 22.4
28 25 22.4 20
15 15 12 12
10 8
Created a new 10% bracket so less income is taxed at 15% and fewer people fall into it.

So another thing that we do not know making it hard to anticipate its effects. Does the expiration of the cuts eliminate the 10% bracket?

Keep in mind Obama has promised to veto any extension unless it excludes the top 2% of the population. In other words if you are in the top 2% you pay 39.6% top rate but if you are 2.1% you pay 35%.

 

[Evo]

More analysis on Romney tax plan.

Romney’s Tax Plan: Secret or Just Nonsensical?

By the Editors Oct 15, 2012 5:51 PM CT

Romney’s reticence has led others to do the job for him. This in turn has made his campaign unhappy. An analysis from the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center has met with particular scorn as it concluded Romney’s plan is mathematically impossible -- that there simply aren’t enough deductions, credits or loopholes in the tax code to offset the cuts for the well-off without wreaking havoc. (Romney’s promise to increase defense spending only complicates matters.) As Bloomberg View’s Josh Barro has demonstrated, efforts to poke holes in the tax center’s work are unconvincing.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-15/romney-s-tax-plan-secret-or-just-nonsensical-.html

And another review.

Mitt Romney's campaign says I'm full of it. I said Romney's tax plan is mathematically impossible: he can't simultaneously keep his pledges to cut tax rates 20 percent and repeal the estate tax and alternative minimum tax; broaden the tax base enough to avoid growing the deficit; and not raise taxes on the middle class. They say they have six independent studies -- six! -- that "have confirmed the soundness of the Governor’s tax plan," and so I should stop whining. Let's take a tour of those studies and see how they measure up.

The Romney campaign sent over a list of the studies, but they are perhaps more accurately described as "analyses," since four of them are blog posts or op-eds. I'm not hating -- I blog for a living -- but I don't generally describe my posts as "studies."

None of the analyses do what Romney's campaign says: show that his tax plan is sound. I'm going to walk through them individually, but first I want to make a broad point.

The Tax Policy Center paper that sparked this discussion found that Romney's plan couldn't work because his tax rate cuts would provide $86 billion more in tax relief to people making over $200,000 than Romney could recoup by eliminating tax expenditures for that group. That means his plan is necessarily a tax cut for the rich, so if Romney keeps his promise not to grow the deficit, he'll have to raise taxes on the middle class.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-12/the-final-word-on-mitt-romney-s-tax-plan.html

 

[Oltz]

More analysis on Romney tax plan.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-15/romney-s-tax-plan-secret-or-just-nonsensical-.html

And another review.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-12/the-final-word-on-mitt-romney-s-tax-plan.html

Those are still all based on the same report your first source was based on. Not 3 separate reviews of his policy or even a review of the assumptions made for the first review.

I am not saying you are wrong that it does not work I am saying we can not know either way with the current information we have.

In fact one is rebutting others complaints about the assumptions when we do not have any information.

 

[mheslep]

his 2001 tax cut ... initiated Bush’s march toward a trillion-dollar deficit.

remember, the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts were also sold on the promise of higher economic growth offsetting much of the revenue loss. It didn't happen.

That's hyperbolic nonsense from Bloomberg's opinion people. Federal revenues increased ~$800B from 2003 to 2007. Yes the recession dropped revenues, but it was the spending increases, including under Bush, and especially due to the accelerated spending in 2009 under Obama that pushed the deficit into the trillion dollar range, where it remains.

Federal revenue, nominal

Federal spending, nominal

Federal deficit

 

[collinsmark]

A new meme has begun!

Hee hee.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/sarcastic-binder-reviews-hit-amazon-155608662.html

"Being a very curvy lady, I really need more of a plus-sized binder to fit into. Will one be made available soon? Otherwise, this binder has everything a woman needs- a small pocket to fit my .70 per dollar, another to store all my recipes for the vast amount of cooking I perform each and every day, plus three separate rings on which to hang my personal belongings. I'll keep my eyes peeled and my fingers crossed that a larger version will soon hit the market. In the meantime, I'm kind of enjoying the "too-tight" look as my entire worth is based on entirely superficial things."

 

[russ_watters]

Don't forget, there was also a violent mob in Libya...

That's wrong too and it's a component of the error I thought we just corrected last night (I pointed it out last night, but you missed it). However, in researching it, it appears that it's a news media issue and not your fault that you didn't know that there was no protest in Benghazi. I knew because I read FoxNews and didn't realize until just now that in this case it meant that most other people didn't know because other media sources largely missed it.

-Initial reports on Benghazi were that the attack occurred out of/in conjunction with a protest.
-Later reports were that not only did the attack not grow out of a protest, there never was a protest to begin with!

So your understanding was apparently two-steps wrong and you've taken the first step to correcting it. But the second step is the more important one; it's what makes Rice's comments so bad. If there was a protest going on, then it is all but a matter of word-play to define the relationship with the protest: whether the attack happened during the protest, grew from the protest, etc. There's not much of a difference there.

But Rice isn't just playing word games with the nature of the link to the protest: she's linking the attack to a protest that didn't exist! The question, though, is whether she knew it at the time...

----------------------------------------
Separate issue on media bias, with sources for the above:
What is perhaps even more interesting about this is that few people are aware that there was no protest because most of the media chose not to report it. I knew it because Fox News was the only major media outlet to report it:

An intelligence source on the ground in Libya told Fox News that there was no demonstration outside the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi prior to last week's attack -- challenging the Obama administration's claims that the assault grew out of a "spontaneous" protest against an anti-Islam film.

"There was no protest and the attacks were not spontaneous," the source said, adding the attack "was planned and had nothing to do with the movie."

The source said the assault came with no warning at about 9:35 p.m. local time, and included fire from more than two locations. The assault included RPG's and mortar fire, the source said, and consisted of two waves.
The account that the attack started suddenly backs up claims by a purported Libyan security guard who told McClatchy Newspapers late last week that the area was quiet before the attack.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...resident-clash-over-explanation-on-consulate/

A week ago, there was this, official word, that also wasn't widely reported:

"The ambassador walked guests out at 8:30 p.m. or so." This is the night of the attack on 9/11. "There was nobody on the street." This is about the possible protests before the attack. "There was nobody on the street" according to this call with two senior State Department officials. Then at 9:30 p.m. they saw on the security cameras at the consulate that there were armed men invading the compound. Again, no protest, no spontaneous protest. There were armed men invading the compound. Quote, "Everything is calm at 8:30 p.m., nothing unusual. There had been nothing unusual during the day outside all day. And then the attack."

Again, this contradicts directly what was said by the U.N. ambassador, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Susan Rice...

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/special-report-bret-baier/2012/10/10/all-star-panel-truth-about-libya-attack-continues-come-out

CNN has a transcript of a video report of the same thing, but I see no article about it: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1210/10/es.01.html

As big of a mistake as it was to say that there was a protest when there wasn't, it is very odd that it is getting so little coverage.

But the question for Rice and the Obama administration is when did they know there was no protest? FoxNews first broke the story the day after Rice made the media rounds, but their article also said there were indications published in other news sources the week before.

 

[Alfi]

Enough of Rice!
Sick of this round and round singular topic.

Did anyone notice anything else about the debate?

 

[mheslep]

Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but the motivation of the US Administration (&media?) for portraying, or believing, the Benghazi attack to be the 'senseless violence' of mob enraged by a video is not clear to me. Thoughts?

Acknowledging an Al Qaeda planned attack hurts the administration how? Takes away the public line that AQ is "on the run". Is that it?

Ok, but what different preemptive action would a different administration (McCain, Romney) have taken? Would they have not given US support to the Libyan civil war, leaving Qaddafi in charge?

If the political problem was an accusation of fumbling embassy security, then an attack in force with heavy weapons weakens that argument, making it more likely that even a reinforced embassy would still have been overrun.

 

[Angry Citizen]

That's hyperbolic nonsense from Bloomberg's opinion people. Federal revenues increased ~$800B from 2003 to 2007. Yes the recession dropped revenues, but it was the spending increases, including under Bush, and especially due to the accelerated spending in 2009 under Obama that pushed the deficit into the trillion dollar range, where it remains.

Federal revenue, nominal

Federal spending, nominal

Federal deficit

How much of the revenue increase was due to normal GDP growth?

 

[Alfi]

Enough of Rice!
Sick of this round and round singular topic.

Did anyone notice anything else about the debate?

Never mind the Binders Full of Women.

“We’re going to bring that pipeline in from Canada. How in the world the president said no to that pipeline? I will never know.”
What Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney also didn’t seem to know, or want to let on in the second Presidential debate, was that the southern portion of the Keystone XL pipeline is actually already being laid out.

Read more:http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2012/10/17/romney-and-obama-debate-keystone-xl-140496 http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2012/10/17/romney-and-obama-debate-keystone-xl-140496#ixzz29hU96jhGAs a Canadian - I hope we stop this pipeline.
where are the mods keeping this on topic ? - oh ! it's the mods arguing about a single topic that's off topic .
make another thread mods.

 

[mheslep]

How much of the revenue increase was due to normal GDP growth?

Historical average maybe, but I don't think we get to say there is some normal GDP growth that would have happened independent of, well, everything. Incentives in economics, i.e. tax rates, matter, though I have little idea how much.

We can say that the idea that revenue growth "didn't happen" after the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts is nonsense.

 

[Evo]

That's wrong too and it's a component of the error I thought we just corrected last night (I pointed it out last night, but you missed it).

Ok, Susan Rice was obviously misinformed, which is why her statements contradict those of Obama. Clinton said in an interview that they all had access to the same information, and the reporter asked why Susan had a different story, Clinton said "you'll have to ask her". It's in the video.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57533061/clinton-on-benghazi-we-all-had-the-same-intel

 

[Alfi]

Historical average maybe, but I don't think we get to say there is some normal GDP growth that would have happened independent of, well, everything. Incentives in economics, i.e. tax rates, matter, though I have little idea how much.

We can say that the idea that revenue growth "didn't happen" after the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts is nonsense.

Was this an observation of the Presidential debate?

 

[Alfi]

Ok, Susan Rice was obviously misinformed, which is why her statements contradict those of Obama. Clinton said in an interview that they all had access to the same information, and the reporter asked why Susan had a different story, Clinton said "you'll have to ask her". It's in the video.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57533061/clinton-on-benghazi-we-all-had-the-same-intel

Was this an observation from the Presidential debate?

 

[Evo]

Was this an observation from the Presidential debate?

No, a response arising out of mention of Susan Rice's interviews several days after the attack in Benghazi.

 

[mheslep]

...

“We’re going to bring that pipeline in from Canada. How in the world the president said no to that pipeline? I will never know.”

What Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney also didn’t seem to know, or want to let on in the second Presidential debate, was that the southern portion of the Keystone XL pipeline is actually already being laid out.

Romney knows. Obama went out to the beginning of the southern KXL route back in March to speak and for some photos, though the federal government has little to no role in the southern, inside the borders pipes, and is thus irrelevant to the a Presidential debate.
http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2012/03/22/obama.3.22.12_620x350.JPG


About the March Obama visit Romney said:

“This week he’s been taking credit for the lower half of the Keystone Pipeline being built. If I’m president, we’ll get the upper half built,” Romney said amid applause.

 

[Alfi]

If I’m president, we’ll get the upper half built,” Romney said amid applause.

I know a few Canadian backs that straightened up at that arrogant comment.

 

[mheslep]

I know a few Canadian backs that straightened up at that arrogant comment.

What is arrogant about it? The Canadian side already has approval from Harper.

 

[turbo]

I know a few Canadian backs that straightened up at that arrogant comment.

It's hard to nail Romney down, but he does seem to have a talent for alienating other countries with his ill-considered statements. In the debate, Obama seemed calm and secure, IMO. He trapped Romney (especially on Libya) without doing an end-zone victory dance. Good enough.

 

[rootX]

I know a few Canadian backs that straightened up at that arrogant comment.

Canadians are giving US a free bridge now US can atleast build pipes to up here