Using General Relativity to analyze the twin paradox

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the twin paradox as analyzed through the lens of General Relativity (GR). Participants explore Einstein's arguments regarding "pseudo gravitational fields" and the implications of these concepts on the validity of the twin paradox analysis. The conversation includes critiques of these arguments and the nature of frame-dependent quantities in relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants reference Einstein's use of "pseudo gravitational fields" to explain the twin paradox, suggesting that the traveling twin's clock shows less elapsed time due to the effects of acceleration and gravitational fields.
  • One participant argues that Builder's criticism of the gravitational field explanation does not invalidate the GR analysis, stating that the field is a coordinate effect and does not require propagation.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the absence of spacetime curvature means no physical influence needs to propagate, challenging the notion that the gravitational field must be "real."
  • Some participants question the validity of frame-dependent quantities, arguing that if the gravitational field is not "real," then explanations involving time dilation or length contraction could also be deemed invalid.
  • There is a discussion about Einstein's interpretation of acceleration in GR being as "relative" as velocity in Special Relativity (SR), with some participants debating the implications of this perspective.
  • Concerns are raised about the characterization of the gravitational field as "fictitious" and whether it can be treated as equally valid as other physical phenomena like time dilation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the gravitational field explanation in the context of the twin paradox. There is no consensus on whether Builder's criticism is valid or whether the gravitational field can be considered a legitimate aspect of the analysis.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion involves interpretations of Einstein's earlier work and the implications of frame-dependent quantities in relativity. The debate touches on the nature of physical reality in non-inertial frames and the validity of using non-inertial frames for physical analysis.

  • #151
Jimster41 said:
what physical thing is happening to the "traveling twin" in a single acceleration step

He's accelerating. :wink: That is, he is "changing direction" in spacetime, so his worldline is curved, not straight. More precisely, his worldline has two straight segments with a curved segment in between; the curved segment is where he is accelerating. The stay-at-home twin's worldline is straight the whole time.

If you mean, what causes him to accelerate, anything that causes him to feel a force will work: he can fire rockets, he can be pushed by a giant laser, he can turn on an electromagnet in his ship and get deflected by an external magnetic field, etc.

Jimster41 said:
which is dependent on energy, by which time dilation and length contraction occur

Time dilation and length contraction don't depend on "energy". The stay-at-home twin never expends any energy--his worldline is straight the whole time--but he still is time dilated and length contracted relative to the traveling twin.

Jimster41 said:
that is not a local space-time "bending" moment
As long as the energy the traveling twin needs to expend to curve his worldline is small enough, it will have negligible effect on the spacetime geometry. But SR doesn't explain why this is true; SR just assumes it (and assumes that we are only dealing with situations where all the energies are small enough). To explain why energies that are small enough don't affect the spacetime geometry, you need GR; the Einstein Field Equation, which tells you how much spacetime curvature is produced by a given amount of energy, is part of GR, not SR.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #152
harrylin said:
It's certainly possible to verify if a calculation method that is claimed to work indeed works. I provided two references that verified that Einstein wasn't bluffing, for those who hold that Einstein's description is too vague to verify. :wink:
They made a lot of assumptions in the German-to-Math translation. I am not saying that their assumptions are bad ones, but I still hold that his description is too vague to verify.
 
  • #153
harrylin said:
Neither Einstein, nor Moller, nor Builder brought them up in this context.
Clearly Einstein did. That is what he was referring to when he said "gravitational field". I showed in his technical paper where he stated that explicitly, but even just his pop-sci paper makes it clear from the way he describes the properties of the gravitational field.

harrylin said:
there remain fictional terms in his description with magical effects.
With this I think it is time to close this thread. This now primarily about Einstein's word-choice and not about physics, and this type of language is deliberately unhelpful. Let's keep future threads to actual physics and not semantics.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Mentz114

Similar threads

  • · Replies 43 ·
2
Replies
43
Views
4K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
4K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • Sticky
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
8K
  • · Replies 35 ·
2
Replies
35
Views
4K
  • · Replies 85 ·
3
Replies
85
Views
7K
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
4K
  • · Replies 208 ·
7
Replies
208
Views
16K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
5K