Vectors in Special Relativity

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation and implications of the inverse Schwarz inequality for time-like vectors in the context of special relativity, as presented in Barut's "Electrodynamics and Classical Theory of Fields and Particles." Participants explore the validity of a specific case used to prove the general statement and the properties of Lorentz invariance related to the inequality.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how the specific case of assuming z_2 = (1,0,0,0) can prove the general inverse Schwarz inequality for any two time-like vectors.
  • Another participant argues that since z_2 is a time-like vector, it can be represented in an inertial reference frame as (ct,0,0,0), which can be simplified to (1,0,0,0) under appropriate units, suggesting that the result holds for all inertial frames due to Lorentz invariance.
  • A third participant adds that both sides of the inequality are Lorentz invariant scalars, and if one side is strictly greater than the other, the inequality remains valid under Lorentz transformations.
  • There is a clarification regarding a typographical issue with LaTeX notation in the discussion, with a participant expressing confusion over the phrasing used by another.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the specific case used in the proof of the inequality, indicating that multiple competing interpretations exist regarding the application of the inverse Schwarz inequality in special relativity.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved aspects regarding the assumptions made in the proof and the implications of Lorentz invariance on the inequality, which may depend on the definitions and contexts applied by participants.

facenian
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I've been reading Barut's "Electrodynamics and Classical Theory of Fields and Particles" and he derives de inverse Schwarz inequality for two time-like vectors [itex]<z_1,z_2>^2\ge z_1^2z_2^2[/itex] in the folowing way : " To show this we can assume without loss of generatlity z_2 to be (1,0,0,0). Then [itex](z_1^0)^2\ge(z_1^0)^2-(z_1^1)^2-(z_1^2)^2-(z_1^3)^2[/itex] which proves the statement".
My question is because I don't see how this particular case can prove the general statement
 
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If you are given that z_2 is a timelike vector then, by definition, there exists some inertial reference frame where z_2 = (ct,0,0,0), then by appropriate choice of units you can have z_2 = (1,0,0,0). Then since the left side and the right side are each quantities which are invariant under the Lorentz transform we immediately know that the result applies for all inertial frames.
 
This can be confusing. To add to what Dale said,

Both sides of the inequality are Lorentz invariant scalars. If the left side is strictly greater than the right side,

[itex]\left<z_1,z_2\right>^{2} > \left<z_1,z_1 \right>\left<z_2,z_2 \right>[/itex]

then under a Lorentz transformation the inequality still holds. That was supposed to be a <z1,z2>2, on the right, but didn't come out well.

If the left and right are equal, they remain equal under a Lorentz transform. This is the case of parallel vectors.
 
Thank you DaleSpan, now I see the book's argument.
I don't unterstand Phrak when you say it didn't come out well, in this case we are talking about the "inverse" Shchwarz inequality it's supposed to be on the "wrong" side
 
Last edited:
facenian said:
I don't unterstand Phrak when you say it didn't come out well
I think Phrak just meant that the LaTeX didn't display the way he wanted it to.
 

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