Water analogy in Particle Physics

In summary: When there is vacuum, the expectation value is zero and no higgs field. When there is vacuum, water is zero and no liquid. What else in particle physics can you give analogy for water condensing out of atmosphere from vacuum?
  • #1
jake jot
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There is something unusual about water. Without atmosphere, water can't exist. It's as if water is part of atmosphere. In vacuum, liquid water can't exist.

What other things like water where it needs other aspects like atmosphere to exist?

And what is the analogy of water in particle physics where it can't exist in liquid form when there is vacuum?
 
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  • #2
jake jot said:
In vacuum, liquid water can't exist.
Liquid water can only exist above the triple point at 273.16 K. At higher temperatures it will evaporate, and so the vacuum will cease to exist.

The atmosphere is composed of all species that are gases at atmospheric temperatures, and that have not yet escaped the planet's gravity.
 
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  • #3
jake jot said:
Without atmosphere, water can't exist.

Frozen water (ice) has been identified on comets and in the rings of Saturn, both places with no atmosphere.

Liquid water will either freeze or evaporate in the absence of an atmosphere, if its surface is open to vacuum, but that doesn't make the water molecules just disappear; they're still there, just not in liquid phase any more.

Liquid water inside a sealed tank can exist just fine if there is vacuum outside the tank.

jake jot said:
it's as if water is part of atmosphere.

Why yes, water vapor is part of the atmosphere. So is liquid water when there are clouds.

jake jot said:
What other things like water where it needs other aspects like atmosphere to exist?

Do you mean, what other things can be liquids under certain conditions? Um, all of them?

I do not understand what your issue is.

jake jot said:
what is the analogy of water in particle physics where it can't exist in liquid form when there is vacuum?

I have no idea what you are talking about.
 
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  • #5
Baluncore said:
I believe the confusion here is the unusual use of the term “particle physics”.

I think the OP needs to clarify what he means by "particle physics". If he means what you describe, he should say so.
 
  • #6
Liquid water can only exist if there is an atmosphere. Liquid water can't exist in the vacuum of space except as frozen water. I'm focusing on the liquid part.

The atmosphere has to push down on the water molecules for them to be in liquid state. In fact the pressure is even known, 14.7 psi. If you put water below atmospheric pressure and further down near vacuum. It can boil at lower temperature, even 40 celsius.

So liquid water is so connected to the atmosphere. Liquid water can't exist in the vacuum of space but as ice.

Is there analogy in particle physics? For example. Goldstone bosons or Nambu–Goldstone bosons (NGBs) are bosons that appear necessarily in models exhibiting spontaneous breakdown of continuous symmetries. So we can give analogy.

Water = Goldstone bosons
Atmosphere = breakdown of continuous symmetry.

Just like water condenses out of the atmosphere. Goldstone bosons condense from breakdown of continuous symmetry.

But I need other examples. Can the higgs field be one? When there is vacuum, the expectation value is zero and no higgs field. When there is vacuum, water is zero and no liquid. What else in particle physics can you give analogy for water condensing out of atmosphere from vacuum? The key is the word "condensing" and vacuum which is good analogy.
 
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  • #7
“Analogy”?
Why should there be one? Why look for one? That wouldn’t help with understanding anything.

I imagine that we all have informal processes in our heads which throw up parallels between lots of things. If you feel happy with your private analogies then fair enough. You’ll have a hard job getting grumpy, prosaic PF to join you there, though.
 
  • #8
jake jot said:
So liquid water is so connected to the atmosphere. Liquid water can't exist in the vacuum of space but as ice.

Even ice will "evaporate" in case the partial pressure of ##H_2O## in the surrounding atmosphere is lower than the saturation pressure of ##H_2O## at the given temperature. This process - the transition from the solid to the gas state - is called sublimation.
 
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  • #9
sophiecentaur said:
“Analogy”?
Why should there be one? Why look for one? That wouldn’t help with understanding anything.

I imagine that we all have informal processes in our heads which throw up parallels between lots of things. If you feel happy with your private analogies then fair enough. You’ll have a hard job getting grumpy, prosaic PF to join you there, though.

All my friends and even professional engineers I know are not even aware water can boil at lower temperature. And none of them know that water is only liquid because of the atmospheric pressure pushing them at 14.7 psi. You remove the pressure, and water turns to vapor.

Also not many know of the Higgs field. So the analogy is for teaching the newbies. Like saying the Higgs field is like the atmosphere which instead of making liquid water stable makes matter stable by having mass. Both create cohesion, something like that.

So what other stuff in particle physics I can use for analogy of the water and atmospheric pressure? Besides Goldstone bosons?
 
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  • #10
The point of an analogy is to explain B to people who understand A by making links between A and B, such as the water analogy to electricity.

There is no point discussing this further, as there is not even a water-particle physics analogy to start with, even less one that laypeople would understand.

Thread closed.
 
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Related to Water analogy in Particle Physics

1. What is the water analogy in particle physics?

The water analogy is a way to explain the behavior of particles in physics using the behavior of water molecules. Just like how water molecules can combine to form larger bodies of water, particles can combine to form larger particles or atoms.

2. How does the water analogy help us understand particle interactions?

The water analogy helps us understand particle interactions by showing how particles can combine or interact with each other to create new particles or change their properties, just like how water molecules can combine to form different substances or change their behavior when interacting with other molecules.

3. Can the water analogy be used to explain all particle interactions?

No, the water analogy is a simplified way to explain particle interactions and cannot be used to explain all interactions. It is a useful tool for understanding basic concepts in particle physics, but more complex interactions require a more advanced understanding of particle behavior.

4. How does the water analogy relate to the Standard Model of particle physics?

The water analogy can be used to explain some aspects of the Standard Model, such as how particles can combine to form larger particles or how they interact with each other. However, the Standard Model is a more comprehensive and complex theory that cannot be fully explained using the water analogy.

5. Are there any limitations to using the water analogy in particle physics?

Yes, there are limitations to using the water analogy in particle physics. While it can be a helpful tool for understanding basic concepts, it is not a perfect representation of particle behavior and cannot fully explain all interactions. It is important to also learn and understand the mathematical and theoretical aspects of particle physics in addition to the water analogy.

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