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Physics What are my chances of getting a job in actual physics research?

  1. Sep 9, 2012 #1
    I'm looking at universities to go to next September. I'm still quite torn between theoretical physics and particle physics. In an absolutely ideal world, my plan is to do my masters, then a PhD and my dream job would be a university professor, or at least working in physics research.

    I know that that isn't likely. A lot of people have the same dreams as me and end up working in the financial sector somewhere. My grandpa's degree is in chemistry and he works in the stock market. So my question is, realistically, what are my chances of getting work in physics research? How important is where you went in terms of getting these positions? I'm not applying to any top 5 universities, but everywhere I am applying to is in the top 10 in the country and a Russell group member.

    So give it to me straight... if I follow my career plan, am I likely to end up working in finance or some other area which isn't related to physics at all?
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 9, 2012 #2

    Vanadium 50

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    A professor will graduate ~10 students in his career, only one of whom will replace him. There are higher order corrections to this, of course, but that's the fundamental idea you need to keep in mind.
     
  4. Sep 9, 2012 #3
    What gave you the idea that finance isn't related to physics? It turns out that the reason investment banks hire physicists is that the equations and skill set is pretty much the same.
     
  5. Sep 10, 2012 #4
    I hadn't really considered that, I'm not going to pretend that I know the ins and outs of the thousands of possible jobs I could get because I obviously don't, it's just that my real love is firstly particle physics, and also all kinds of mechanics, which I just can't see fitting into a setting like that. I like maths a lot but the only time I really thoroughly enjoy it is when I can apply it to a "proper" physics setting. I guess there are quite a lot of industry jobs which require an in depth knowledge of classical mechanics.

    You're right, there is a chance I might also enjoy a career like that, and it would be worth maybe trying it out in the form of some kind of work experience placement or internship. I just can't envision myself being really happy without doing "proper" physics regularly. But while it will take a hell of a lot to dissuade my from my dream, it's actually quite arrogant of me to assume at this stage that I know enough about all of the other possible jobs to dismiss them. Thankyou.
     
  6. Sep 10, 2012 #5
    Don't worry, you have time. Also what makes this tricky is that jobs come into being and disappear. The job that I'm doing didn't exist when I was an undergraduate.

    Also just to give you a taste of how particle physics can be used in finance. Here is a (somewhat out of date) paper in Physics Review E

    http://www.physics.nus.edu.sg/~phybeb/Swap Emp PRE.pdf

    and there is other interesting stuff on his web page

    http://www.physics.nus.edu.sg/~phybeb

    Same here, but I've found it best to have a very "broad" definition of physics.
     
  7. Sep 11, 2012 #6
    Then your best bet is some type of engineering degree. Everyone I know with an engineering degree claims to use some physics-based-analysis somewhat regularly, hardly any of the physics phds I know use physics very often (most are in finance,IT,data mining,etc). I did a particle phd and now work for an insurance company.
     
  8. Sep 11, 2012 #7

    phyzguy

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    I don't think your choice is between physics professor and finance. There are a large number of engineering jobs, as ParticleGrl pointed out, where you use science and mathematics regularly. It's possible to land one of these jobs with either an engineering degree or a physics degree.
     
  9. Sep 12, 2012 #8
    In my experience the ease with which a physicist (talking MS/PhD level here) can get a job in engineering depends very strongly on specialization. I know a decent number of condensed matter experimentalists who got jobs in engineering. Some even are still doing things fairly close to the research they were doing in academia. In contrast in my field (high energy experiment), I don't personally know anyone who got their PhD in the last decade that has been able to transition to engineering.

    Note that I am not counting software engineering here for the purposes of engineering jobs. Nearly every high energy experimentalist I know that left the field, including me, has ended up in software development of some sort. High energy experiment is basically 95% programming, so that is the transferable skill you get out of your PhD.

    I can't say I've really used any of the science that I learned in grad school. I use math but only what I learned in all the CS classes I took in undergrad. To be honest those CS classes were a lot more useful in the completion of my PhD and my future career than a lot of my physics classes...
     
  10. Sep 13, 2012 #9
    So more or less if you want to do physics research forget about theory or high energy and say "hi" to more applied field.
     
  11. Sep 13, 2012 #10
    I don't think that's true at all. One reason I keep posting is that there is this idea that you are doomed if you are a theorist and that you have to do experimental stuff to stay in the field. It didn't work out that way for me.

    One other thing is that the problem with "flooding" also happens with subfields of physics. A few years ago, lots of people were going into biophysics because that's were the money and jobs seemed to be. If everyone decides to go into solid state experimental physics at the same time, the same thing will happen, and people will be talking about a shortage of HEP people.

    One reason I ended up working on Wall Street is that I do end up using most of the science that I learned in graduate school. That's probably more important than the money for why I ended up where I am.
     
  12. Sep 13, 2012 #11
    You do Finance - which means you are in different field useing same tools as in theoretical physics. But you don't do HEP or Astro, you do Finance or Econophysics.

    It's not bad - I mean finance is interesting field. But people should be aware that doing theory won't give them skills that are needed for engineering jobs.

    Theory -> IT, Finance, Oil and Gas and other. Skills: programming, computional methods

    Experiment (applied field) -> various engineering jobs

    Which means your theory only apply to "computional theorists".

    That's reality. Pen and paper guys are doomed. They won't get any job useing their skills because doing math on paper is useless wherever you go.

    But it's all about supply and demand.

    There are far more engineers than physicists and yet physicists are those who struggle to get a job.

    I don't belive that if 1500 people per year (that's the number of PhDs in US, right?) become engineers, we will hit the wall. Demand is far too great for that. On the other hand in HEP we don't need more than 10-20 fresh PhDs per year.
     
  13. Sep 16, 2012 #12
    To try to answer the original question: I believe that your probability of becoming a professor is quite high if you are willing to sacrifice a great deal to attain it.

    The problem with you current plan is the gap between 'finish PhD' and 'become professor'. This gap is usually filled with numerous post-doc positions which are geographically disparate, un-secure, hard work and relatively poorly paid. If you are willing to subject yourself to this then, eventually, you should be able to progress to something more permanent. The problem is there are no guarantees when this will happen, or even if it will happen.

    For most people this is not an acceptable proposition once a partner or family comes on the scene. Of course you are in the best position to assess the likelihood of this, but, statistically, it is likely you will decide that you are unwilling to continue with post doc positions and enter more reliable employment.
     
  14. Sep 16, 2012 #13
    But I am doing theoretical physics. It's not astrophysics, but it's theoretical physics.

    Also I do find it amusing that people tell me what I'm doing without knowing exactly what work I do.

    The problem with classification is that they can be misleading. There are lots of different jobs that are under "finance." Most of them have nothing to do with "physics research", but you have jobs like mine that are pretty close to what I was doing in graduate school.

    Also there isn't a huge demand for "pen and paper" theorists in industry, but most theorists in astrophysics nowadays aren't "pen and paper" types either.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
  15. Sep 16, 2012 #14
    I would disagree. It's also disagree with "professor=physics research." One problem is thinking that being a professor is the only way of doing physics research.

    The trouble is that there is no small number of people that go through the post-doc game, and then end up with nothing.
     
  16. Sep 17, 2012 #15
    Why specifically physics research?

    Also if you want to do theoretical astrophysics or something why not just buy Matlab and play around with models on your PC and get a regular day job or something?

    I'm not trying to be mean, these are serious questions.

    Also if you want to apply quantum mechanics, as in actually use quantum mechanics every day, there's actually industrial jobs in a factory that require you to know many things in quantum mechanics.
     
  17. Sep 17, 2012 #16
    Because you get brainwashed by Star Trek and Doctor Who.

    Because there is a difference between tossing paper airplanes and flying Boeing 747's. If you want to do "serious" theoretical research (i.e. stuff that is publishable in Astrophysical Journal), this is going to be very difficult to do with a day job. I haven't been able to do it. I can't say that it can't be done, but I can tell you why it's hard.
     
  18. Sep 17, 2012 #17
    Yes but to be a 747 pilot is alot harder than tossing a paper airplane, and just like going to pilot school if you don't become a pilot... then what?
     
  19. Sep 17, 2012 #18

    Vanadium 50

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    I think it's more like joining the Air Force and not becoming a pilot. There's plenty of other stuff that needs to be done, but it may not be your first choice.
     
  20. Sep 17, 2012 #19
    We seem to be going down the analogy road, but....

    One thing about graduate school is that it's more than "school." When you are in graduate school, you are not merely training to be a pilot, you are a pilot. They put you at the console of a 747 and then won't let you out unless they know that you can do it.

    This makes physics graduate school, different from say law school or medical school. When you are in law school, you aren't a lawyer. When you are in medical school, you aren't a doctor. When you are in physics graduate school, you are a physicist, a scientist, and a "real" researcher, since there is no way that you can learn to do scientific research other than by doing it for real.

    That's the "good news" about doing physics. It's not hard to be a physics researcher. You just apply to graduate school and as a student, you are a "real" researcher. The tough part is if you go in, figure out what you love the stuff, and want to figure out how you can do it for the rest of your life.
     
  21. Sep 18, 2012 #20
    thats true. a grad student is indeed a real researcher. and it is a job. I put in the hours in lab every day just like at a factory job.

    but i think what the OP was asking was probably along the lines of a nonstudent job.
     
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