What Caused the Recent Bombings in London?

[Townsend]

Obviously on tha occasion you were wrong jk Penqwuino

Whats funny is that you're not joking, just trolling.

Oh, by the way...I was only joking there Art

 

[klusener]

All Muslims aren't like the people who perpetrate violent attacks. But what I find the media doing again and again during these kinds of events is connect Islam with terrorism and they continue to hound it into the public's mind, until there is no difference between the two. When the IRA strikes somewhere or a similar individual or group attacks some place, why don't we hear "Christian terrorists" in the media?

 

[Astronuc]

Moderate Muslim, what’s that? I’ve not been able to find any unqualified condemnation by a Muslim cleric or government.

ADC Strongly Condemns Bombings in London

ADC Press Release
July 7, 2005

Washington, DC, The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC) is horrified by the series of bombings that rocked London's public transportation earlier today. At this time, it is being reported that there are 2 fatalities and more than 200 casualties.

Information as to who is responsible for these latest bombings in London has yet to be confirmed. Regardless of the identity of the perpetrators of this terrible crime, ADC condemns this heinous act in the strongest possible terms. ADC urges the public and the media to proceed with caution.

ADC believes that the best plan of action to such an appalling attack is for all Americans to come together and offer support to the British people.

http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=9502

Muslims in the UK also joined in condemning the attacks. The British Muslim Forum said: "Our hearts go out to all those who have been affected and we express our sympathy to their families and friends.

Ahmed Versi, editor of The Muslim News, said: "We unequivocally condemn these terrorist attacks. We express our deep condolences to the families, relatives and friends of the victims."

If one bothers to look, one will find that many Muslims do condemn terrorism, including todays events.

and http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=9500

 

[Mattius_]

Just wanted to give empathy to the people of the UK. The US is with you.

 

[russ_watters]

The only way ultimately to stop this kind of endless slaughter is to remove their reasons for being and remove the support these fanatics hold within the muslim communities / countries.

Trouble is, "their reasons for being" include our very existence (see: Bin Laden's "open letter" to the west), so unless we decide to commit mass-suicide, we'll never remove their motivation.

Eliminating the support in Muslim communitied may be possible, but it too is extremely difficult. Nation-scale religious fanaticism is so ingraned in some societies, its extrordinarily difficult to eradicate. About the only thing that can do it from the outside is spreading information to counter the propaganda that the general public of such countries are being fed. Some countries are starting to turn it around (Iran) but it is a very slow process.

From the inside, prosperity can do it - people who are prosperous have no need to look for scapegoats to blame for their situation. But again, how do you make a corrupt, criminal dictatorship prosperous?

One X-factor is the progress being made on ME peace, with Israel pulling out of many of its occupied territories. There is little more that can be done to show a true commitment to peace than fighting with your own citizens in the name of international peace. We'll just have to wait and see if the PA makes a reciprocal gesture and if the people on both sides respond to the magnitude of this gesture. IMO, real peace between the Islamic world and the west needs to start in Israel anyway.

 

[Art]

Moderate Muslim, what’s that? ...

London is one of the most culturally diverse cities in the world. Without a doubt some of the casualities of this attack will be muslims so your assertion is as ridiculous as it is offensive.

 

[Astronuc]

Iran and Syria, both on Washington's list of states sponsoring terrorism, joined an unbroken chorus of condemnation, as did the Palestinian Authority, the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas and Lebanon's Shi'ite Muslim Hizbollah guerrillas.

Perhaps it is just a formality. Nevertheless, they are now on record as condemning the terrorist attacks.

from http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050707/wl_nm/security_britain_world_dc

 

[ron damon]

Why Europe let's in so many Muslim [edited] is really baffling. What are they trying to accomplish? Wherever Muslims are you find terrorist activity and conflict, be it in the Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, India, Israel, Russia, Bosnia, Spain... Every country in Europe with a large Muslim community has been utterly incapable of assimilating them: in Sweden they control large cities where even emergency services are unable to enter without police escort, in the Netherlands 40% live off welfare, murder artists and burn churches, in France they riot seasonally and very vocally express their hatred for their host nation. If Muslims want to keep on living in the middle ages, then do so in your own vast territories. Don't come to my West.

Before you call me "racist", the above comes from someone who naively, but sincerely, supported the Iraq invasion in the hopes of modernizing the middle east in the fashion of the successful work done in Japan and Korea, and who passionately and publicly supported the entry of Turkey into the EU.

And to the West. We DESPERATELY need to find alternative sources of energy. The only way to fix the Muslim world is to get the F*CK out of there and erect a wall to keep us separated until the modern era dawns upon them.

 

[Informal Logic]

At least 37 dead, 700 injured at this time... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8496611/
I express my deepest sympathy to the British. I agree that this senseless attack on civilians by terrorists will achieve nothing but condemnation, including from the Islamic community. After a bombing within Saudi Arabia, officials decided to leave the building in ruins as a daily reminder to the people of the destruction caused by terrorism.

It seems this was done by a splinter group, but shows that the problem not only is growing, but may become more volatile.

Perhaps...or perhaps they may wake up and realize that their countries are living in the dark ages because of Islamic furvor. The Arab world lived in something of a Golden Age, much like ancient Greece or the classical Maya, until aggressive Islamic fundamentalism took over.

The reformation of christianity in Europe allowed enlightened thinking and human reasoning to take hold. If Islam were to reform itself, perhaps the same would happen with them.

If the Islamic states are weak, and are being exploited by the mighty powers of the world, it is because they let themselves fall into a position of weakness.

Religion, and in particular Christianity, has never encouraged enlightened thinking. You mention Europe, and might I suggest you review history during the Dark Ages. Those who pursued science were considered heretics, and only the monks were allowed education and to be literate. And then shall we discuss the crusades?

The root of terrorism is due to US bias toward Israel, lack of sensitivity toward Islam and holy sites, etc., even racism toward Arabs, interference in the Middle East in the pursuit of oil, encroachment of Western culture on their society, etc. You cannot stop terrorism with military force. You must address the roots of hatred. This is very simple and clear, yet the US and many Americans refuse to see it.

 

[russ_watters]

get a grip! go read the karan, and understand Islam before painting every single muslism with the same brush...

Unfortunately, after I read the Koran, it confirmed the worst of the stereotypes I'd heard. Until then, I tried to keep an open mind in the way you suggest. After I read it - while can see why it's possible to be a peacful muslim, I also can see why extremism can easily come from that book.

 

[Art]

Unfortunately, after I read the Koran, it confirmed the worst of the stereotypes I'd heard. Until then, I tried to keep an open mind in the way you suggest. After I read it - while can see why it's possible to be a peacful muslim, I also can see why extremism can easily come from that book.

Have you ever read the 'old testament' of the Bible?

 

[Townsend]

Unfortunately, after I read the Koran, it confirmed the worst of the stereotypes I'd heard. Until then, I tried to keep an open mind in the way you suggest. After I read it - while can see why it's possible to be a peacful muslim, I also can see why extremism can easily come from that book.

Yes but russ you still need to keep an open mind. You cannot condemn an entire religion because of this. People have the right to practice whatever religion they choose even if that religion breeds terrorism. Its like the KKK, it is a loathsome organization but never the less people have a right to be a part of the KKK if they so choose.

The best we can do is to try and focus on the positive aspects of the Islamic religion and try to teach people that human rights should always come first. Perhaps we need to try to give a different viewpoint on the Islamic religion.

Regards

 

[Anttech]

Wherever Muslims are you find terrorist activity and conflict, be it in the Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, India, Israel, Russia, Bosnia, Spain...

total bull****e...

in the Netherlands 40% live off welfare, murder artists and burn churches, in France they riot seasonally and very vocally express their hatred for their host nation

judging by your retoric you are from USA... FAR more people are murdered in your country by Christians than are murdered in Europe by Muslims.. You have no capacity to understand that 'your country' kills Far more people waging war in foreign lands than Muslims do...

Don't come to my West.

Its not 'your west'... It would have been your west if Nazi Germany won the second world war! But thank god they didnt...

Bosnia

do you have any idea what actually happened in the former Yougosalvia... The Serbians (Christian) tried to kill all the Bosinans (Mulsim)

Emotions are running high right now, and I'll tell you I am Glad to have many British Pakistaini Afgain Irainian Iraqi friends... They bring a sense of culture from the cradles of civalisation and in the most part live in harmony with the Christians in the UK...

 

[Townsend]

They bring a sense of culture from the cradles of civalisation and in the most part live in harmony with the Christians in the UK...

This is the kind of thing that brings hope into the world.

I might be naive but I still think that world peace is possible. And I don't mean a bunch of hippies (no offense to the hippies) running around smoking pot or some fairy tale utopia either. I mean everyone having mutual respect for each other enough so that we don’t blow each other off the face of the earth.

However, I know enough to realize that such a dream is a long ways off. Until that day comes terrorism needs to be kept in check. I know that the British will make the right decision and I know that the US will back them up 100 percent as they have done for us.

 

[russ_watters]

Have you ever read the 'old testament' of the Bible?

Yes, I have. They don't compare.

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

They bring a sense of culture from the cradles of civalisation and in the most part live in harmony with the Christians in the UK...

i think that what russ is trying to say is that it all-too-often seems like the majority of muslims are silent on the matter. nobody would say that all of them are terrorists, but they don't seem to have a problem with it either.

 

[russ_watters]

Yes but russ you still need to keep an open mind. You cannot condemn an entire religion because of this. People have the right to practice whatever religion they choose even if that religion breeds terrorism. Its like the KKK, it is a loathsome organization but never the less people have a right to be a part of the KKK if they so choose.

People can certainly believe whatever they want, but the actions they take as a part of that group are what determine if the group is allowed to exist or not. The KKK manages to just barely keep itself above water, but has all but been arrested/legislated into oblivion. There are a number of muslim groups (al Qaeda, obviously) that simply do not have the right to exist, in precisely the same way that the IRA, or the mafia does not have the right to exist.

No, I wouldn't say all (or even half) of Muslims would be characterizable as terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, but to belong to a religion that so easily breeds terrorism and extremism would cause me to question its validity. But then - I'm not a big fan of organized religion in general... I see too many people in all religions who make excuses for what is done in the name of their religion, rather than questioning the religion that provides the belief engine for the acts.

 

[russ_watters]

i think that what russ is trying to say is that it all-too-often seems like the majority of muslims are silent on the matter. nobody would say that all of them are terrorists, but they don't seem to have a problem with it either.

I would agree with that, however, its tough to really know what the typical Muslim thinks or would think if they were educated enough. Most live in oppressive regimes, are fed propaganda that impairs their judgement, have substandard education in general, and don't have a way to express their opinion even if they had all the information necessary to form informed opinions. That's half the reason most of the vocal opposition from Muslim groups comes from Muslim groups in the west (the other half is, of course, that part of the reason why Muslims would leave the ME to come to the west is that dis-satisfaction with the ME).

 

[2CentsWorth]

Trouble is, "their reasons for being" include our very existence (see: Bin Laden's "open letter" to the west), so unless we decide to commit mass-suicide, we'll never remove their motivation.

A little exaggerated...This pertains to Infidels desecrating the holy land, and not to eradication of an entire race from the face of the Earth. As far as Western culture is concerned, one has to admit that our obsessions with video games, pornography, gambling, sports, reality TV, etc. are not exactly desirable, and we could use a little 'back to the basics' wholesomeness ourselves.

Eliminating the support in Muslim communitied may be possible, but it too is extremely difficult. Nation-scale religious fanaticism is so ingraned in some societies, its extrordinarily difficult to eradicate.

It's the same way with religious fundamentalism here in the US, in which children are indoctrinated during the formative years.

About the only thing that can do it from the outside is spreading information to counter the propaganda that the general public of such countries are being fed. Some countries are starting to turn it around (Iran) but it is a very slow process.

Not that the media in the US couldn't use some improvement too, but broadcasts, particularly those sponsored by the US are viewed as state-sponsored, and indeed it is.

From the inside, prosperity can do it - people who are prosperous have no need to look for scapegoats to blame for their situation.

Many countries in the Middle East are oil-rich, for example Saudi Arabia, yet this is where the majority of terrorists have originated.

One X-factor is the progress being made on ME peace, with Israel pulling out of many of its occupied territories. There is little more that can be done to show a true commitment to peace than fighting with your own citizens in the name of international peace. We'll just have to wait and see if the PA makes a reciprocal gesture and if the people on both sides respond to the magnitude of this gesture. IMO, real peace between the Islamic world and the west needs to start in Israel anyway.

I agree and hope the same thing.

 

[Anttech]

Most live in oppressive regimes, are fed propaganda that impairs their judgement, have substandard education in general

This is flawed in my opinion, especially relating to todays incidences...
I'll bet you the islamic terrorists that were involved in todays incident in London (if it was Islamic fundemenatists), they have lived all their lifes in England.. We all know the UK has a good education system with very free information flow

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

As far as Western culture is concerned, one has to admit that our obsessions with video games, pornography, gambling, sports, reality TV, etc. are not exactly desirable, and we could use a little 'back to the basics' wholesomeness ourselves.

my god man, these are the things that make life worth living!. Well, you also forgot women and alcohol - both of which i guess are also forbidden in strict Islamic culture, unless you die in which case you get a bunch of virgins (that doesn't sound like a very good time to me).

 

[Astronuc]

No, I wouldn't say all (or even half) of Muslims would be characterizable as terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, but to belong to a religion that so easily breeds terrorism and extremism would cause me to question its validity.

If one adopts that position, then one must question the validity of Christianity, not just Islam!

Just read Bruce Carrol's "Constatine's Sword" and David Kertzer's "The Popes Against the Jews". From the crusades to modern times, groups of people claiming to be Christian have directed hostility toward non-Christians!

Look at the hero status of George Armstrong Custer, who was the Ratko Mladić (murdered of many innocent Bosnians) of his day. Custer slaughtered hundreds if not thousands of innocent (and unarmed) women and children, and elderly.

Also, consider US history - taking the land of the indigenous folks, Indians, who were deemed savage and less than human because of their race and non-Christian culture.

Then look at more recent US foreign policy, say in the Philippines.
http://occawlonline.pearsoned.com/bookbind/pubbooks/divine5e/medialib/timeline/docs/sources/theme_primarysources_Military_2_11.html

A tribe of Moros, dark-skinned savages, had fortified themselves in the bowl of an extinct crater not many miles from Jolo; and as they were hostiles, and bitter against us because we have been trying for eight years to take their liberties away from them, their presence in that position was a menace. Our commander, General Leonard Wood, ordered a reconnaissance [sic]. It was found that the Moros numbered six hundred, counting women and children; that their crater bowl was in the summit of a peak or mountain twenty-two hundred feet above sea level, and very difficult of access for Christian troops and artillery.

Contrast these things with the great statistics which have arrived from that Moro crater! There, with six hundred engaged on each side, we lost fifteen men killed outright, and we had thirty-two wounded. . . . The enemy numbered six hundred-including women and children-and we abolished them utterly, leaving not even a baby alive to cry for its dead mother. This is incomparably the greatest victory that was ever achieved by the Christian soldiers of the United States.

Hmmmm!

But then - I'm not a big fan of organized religion in general... I see too many people in all religions who make excuses for what is done in the name of their religion, rather than questioning the religion that provides the belief engine for the acts.

The other half of the paragraph quoted above. I am not questioning Russ, but rather addressing those who might single out Islam for condemnation, while ignoring the fact that Christainity has in the past incited people to similar violence.

 

[russ_watters]

A little exaggerated...This pertains to Infidels desecrating the holy land, and not to eradication of an entire race from the face of the Earth.

No, 2Cents - not exaggerated. Its #1 (join Islam) and #2 (give up your way of life) in the "what we want from you" section in his open letter to the west: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

If we don't, he wishes to destroy us. "If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation... Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people."

He may be a psychopath, but his opinion is not unique among terrorists. Palestinian terrorists have yet to step back from their stated goal of the annihilation of Israel.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

Why Europe let's in so many Muslim [edited] is really baffling. What are they trying to accomplish? Wherever Muslims are you find terrorist activity and conflict, be it in the Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, India, Israel, Russia, Bosnia, Spain... Every country in Europe with a large Muslim community has been utterly incapable of assimilating them: in Sweden they control large cities where even emergency services are unable to enter without police escort, in the Netherlands 40% live off welfare, murder artists and burn churches, in France they riot seasonally and very vocally express their hatred for their host nation. If Muslims want to keep on living in the middle ages, then do so in your own vast territories. Don't come to my West.

Before you call me "racist", the above comes from someone who naively, but sincerely, supported the Iraq invasion in the hopes of modernizing the middle east in the fashion of the successful work done in Japan and Korea, and who passionately and publicly supported the entry of Turkey into the EU.

And to the West. We DESPERATELY need to find alternative sources of energy. The only way to fix the Muslim world is to get the F*CK out of there and erect a wall to keep us separated until the modern era dawns upon them.

I noticed that this posted was edited by Russ, so I guess he's moderating, in which case I don't hold out any hope, but if there are any other moderators watching I'd just like to state before I add this [worst word possible... you know... begins with c] to my ignore list that I am incredibly surprised and disappointed that posts like this are accepted on this forum. That's all.

 

[Astronuc]

As far as Western culture is concerned, one has to admit that our obsessions with video games, pornography, gambling, sports, reality TV, etc. are not exactly desirable, and we could use a little 'back to the basics' wholesomeness ourselves.

I do participate in sports, rather than watch. As for the rest of the list - :yuck: I do not engage in those activities and have no interest in doing so.

Reading books on various topics, gardening and outdoor recreation, doing family things, watching stars and celestial objects at night, and participating in science forums occupies my time when I am not working or sleeping.

 

[russ_watters]

If one adopts that position, then one must question the validity of Christianity, not just Islam!

Did you read my whole post...?

As I said, I'm not a big fan of religion in general, but to be more specific regarding Christian sects, the Catholic Church and a number of branches of Protestantism. I'm Presbyterian, which I consider one of the more benign, but there is still an awful lot that I don't like about it and I'm far from a devout follower.

 

[Anttech]

Palestinian terrorists have yet to step back from their stated goal of the annihilation of Israel.

seem like what Israel wants to do to Palestine...

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

If one adopts that position, then one must question the validity of Christianity, not just Islam!

I see your point Astronuc, and it is a good one.

But, Christianity has changed. Christianity now has taken the form of people mumbling things and singing hymns from time to time, it really doesn't have much meaning. We are far too materialist to be fundamantalists (athough there are some christian fundamentalists still) or any kind of "-ists" for that matter. And there is no concept of "infidel" in the christian church anymore.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

while can see why it's possible to be a peacful muslim,

No, I wouldn't say all (or even half) of Muslims would be characterizable as terrorists or terrorist sympathizers

Then again, when said moderators write this kind of thing, why the hell do I waste my time? It's such a shame that even in moments where you'd think the world might come together a little more, there are those who would rather widen the gap.

 

[Astronuc]

Originally Posted by Astronuc
If one adopts that position, then one must question the validity of Christianity, not just Islam!

Did you read my whole post...?

As I said, I'm not a big fan of religion in general, but to be more specific regarding Christian sects, the Catholic Church and a number of branches of Protestantism. I'm Presbyterian, which I consider one of the more benign, but there is still an awful lot that I don't like about it and I'm far from a devout follower.

Yes, but I chose to address that particular point. I was not singling you out or being critical of you. Sorry if I gave that impression.

However, I have heard Pat Roberston, Jerry Falwell, and many other fundamentalist (Christian) figures denigrating Islam and Muslims, with essentially the same polemic with which the terrorists aim at the US and other predominantly Christian cultures.

I myself am affiliated with the Unitarian Universtalist Association, but my own personal religion is more complex since it is based on years of study of all religions. I have no problem with organized religion that is true, honest, just, righteous and promotes the welfare of all mankind. I do have a problem with any religion that denigrates, or calls for the destruction or harm, of any portion of humanity.

 

[russ_watters]

seem like what Israel wants to do to Palestine...

What do you base that on? The fact that Israel is now pulling out of occupied territories so that for the first time ever, "Palestine" can exist? The fact of the matter is, Israel has never wanted anything other than its own survival and security. All of the occupied territories that they are now pulling out of were taken in defensive wars.

Frankly, it seems to me the Israelis are doing more to help in the creation of Palestine than the Palestinians and neighboring arabs ever have.

 

[russ_watters]

Yes, but I chose to address that particular point.

Ok...well, there was a lot more in that post relevant to that point. By taking it out of context, you implied that I don't question Christianity and I was relatively clear about saying that I do.

edit: missed an edit you did after this post - fair enough.

 

[Anttech]

The fact that Isrealies are bulldosing Palestine villages to make way for green belts?!
The fact that the Isrealies Put walls up round strips that they 'allow' Palestines to live in, breaking up families and not allowing Palestines to move freely..

Sharon is as much a "terrorist" as Arafat every was... The people in "Palestine" live in fear every day that perhaps a stray Isrealy bullet will kill them, (Just like that British Jornalist was, for helping a child?)... The Isrealies have absolutly no value of life, especially a Paslestine one...

 

[Hurkyl]

judging by your retoric you are from USA

Ah, doing your part to help stir up hatred, eh? :tongue2:

 

[Anttech]

Ah, doing your part to help stir up hatred, eh? :tongue2:

hmm didnt mean it to come over like that, I ment that due to him Hating Muslims and calling European Stupid for being tolerent he could only be from the States...

Well perhaps that is stirring the pot a bit oh well sorry ;-)