News What Caused the Recent Bombings in London?

[quetzalcoatl9]

They bring a sense of culture from the cradles of civalisation and in the most part live in harmony with the Christians in the UK...

i think that what russ is trying to say is that it all-too-often seems like the majority of muslims are silent on the matter. nobody would say that all of them are terrorists, but they don't seem to have a problem with it either.

 

[russ_watters]

Yes but russ you still need to keep an open mind. You cannot condemn an entire religion because of this. People have the right to practice whatever religion they choose even if that religion breeds terrorism. Its like the KKK, it is a loathsome organization but never the less people have a right to be a part of the KKK if they so choose.

People can certainly believe whatever they want, but the actions they take as a part of that group are what determine if the group is allowed to exist or not. The KKK manages to just barely keep itself above water, but has all but been arrested/legislated into oblivion. There are a number of muslim groups (al Qaeda, obviously) that simply do not have the right to exist, in precisely the same way that the IRA, or the mafia does not have the right to exist.

No, I wouldn't say all (or even half) of Muslims would be characterizable as terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, but to belong to a religion that so easily breeds terrorism and extremism would cause me to question its validity. But then - I'm not a big fan of organized religion in general... I see too many people in all religions who make excuses for what is done in the name of their religion, rather than questioning the religion that provides the belief engine for the acts.

 

[russ_watters]

i think that what russ is trying to say is that it all-too-often seems like the majority of muslims are silent on the matter. nobody would say that all of them are terrorists, but they don't seem to have a problem with it either.

I would agree with that, however, its tough to really know what the typical Muslim thinks or would think if they were educated enough. Most live in oppressive regimes, are fed propaganda that impairs their judgement, have substandard education in general, and don't have a way to express their opinion even if they had all the information necessary to form informed opinions. That's half the reason most of the vocal opposition from Muslim groups comes from Muslim groups in the west (the other half is, of course, that part of the reason why Muslims would leave the ME to come to the west is that dis-satisfaction with the ME).

 

[2CentsWorth]

Trouble is, "their reasons for being" include our very existence (see: Bin Laden's "open letter" to the west), so unless we decide to commit mass-suicide, we'll never remove their motivation.

A little exaggerated...This pertains to Infidels desecrating the holy land, and not to eradication of an entire race from the face of the Earth. As far as Western culture is concerned, one has to admit that our obsessions with video games, pornography, gambling, sports, reality TV, etc. are not exactly desirable, and we could use a little 'back to the basics' wholesomeness ourselves.

Eliminating the support in Muslim communitied may be possible, but it too is extremely difficult. Nation-scale religious fanaticism is so ingraned in some societies, its extrordinarily difficult to eradicate.

It's the same way with religious fundamentalism here in the US, in which children are indoctrinated during the formative years.

About the only thing that can do it from the outside is spreading information to counter the propaganda that the general public of such countries are being fed. Some countries are starting to turn it around (Iran) but it is a very slow process.

Not that the media in the US couldn't use some improvement too, but broadcasts, particularly those sponsored by the US are viewed as state-sponsored, and indeed it is.

From the inside, prosperity can do it - people who are prosperous have no need to look for scapegoats to blame for their situation.

Many countries in the Middle East are oil-rich, for example Saudi Arabia, yet this is where the majority of terrorists have originated.

One X-factor is the progress being made on ME peace, with Israel pulling out of many of its occupied territories. There is little more that can be done to show a true commitment to peace than fighting with your own citizens in the name of international peace. We'll just have to wait and see if the PA makes a reciprocal gesture and if the people on both sides respond to the magnitude of this gesture. IMO, real peace between the Islamic world and the west needs to start in Israel anyway.

I agree and hope the same thing.

 

[Anttech]

Most live in oppressive regimes, are fed propaganda that impairs their judgement, have substandard education in general

This is flawed in my opinion, especially relating to todays incidences...
I'll bet you the islamic terrorists that were involved in todays incident in London (if it was Islamic fundemenatists), they have lived all their lifes in England.. We all know the UK has a good education system with very free information flow

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

As far as Western culture is concerned, one has to admit that our obsessions with video games, pornography, gambling, sports, reality TV, etc. are not exactly desirable, and we could use a little 'back to the basics' wholesomeness ourselves.

my god man, these are the things that make life worth living!. Well, you also forgot women and alcohol - both of which i guess are also forbidden in strict Islamic culture, unless you die in which case you get a bunch of virgins (that doesn't sound like a very good time to me).

 

[Astronuc]

No, I wouldn't say all (or even half) of Muslims would be characterizable as terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, but to belong to a religion that so easily breeds terrorism and extremism would cause me to question its validity.

If one adopts that position, then one must question the validity of Christianity, not just Islam!

Just read Bruce Carrol's "Constatine's Sword" and David Kertzer's "The Popes Against the Jews". From the crusades to modern times, groups of people claiming to be Christian have directed hostility toward non-Christians!

Look at the hero status of George Armstrong Custer, who was the Ratko Mladić (murdered of many innocent Bosnians) of his day. Custer slaughtered hundreds if not thousands of innocent (and unarmed) women and children, and elderly.

Also, consider US history - taking the land of the indigenous folks, Indians, who were deemed savage and less than human because of their race and non-Christian culture.

Then look at more recent US foreign policy, say in the Philippines.
http://occawlonline.pearsoned.com/bookbind/pubbooks/divine5e/medialib/timeline/docs/sources/theme_primarysources_Military_2_11.html

A tribe of Moros, dark-skinned savages, had fortified themselves in the bowl of an extinct crater not many miles from Jolo; and as they were hostiles, and bitter against us because we have been trying for eight years to take their liberties away from them, their presence in that position was a menace. Our commander, General Leonard Wood, ordered a reconnaissance [sic]. It was found that the Moros numbered six hundred, counting women and children; that their crater bowl was in the summit of a peak or mountain twenty-two hundred feet above sea level, and very difficult of access for Christian troops and artillery.

Contrast these things with the great statistics which have arrived from that Moro crater! There, with six hundred engaged on each side, we lost fifteen men killed outright, and we had thirty-two wounded. . . . The enemy numbered six hundred-including women and children-and we abolished them utterly, leaving not even a baby alive to cry for its dead mother. This is incomparably the greatest victory that was ever achieved by the Christian soldiers of the United States.

Hmmmm!

But then - I'm not a big fan of organized religion in general... I see too many people in all religions who make excuses for what is done in the name of their religion, rather than questioning the religion that provides the belief engine for the acts.

The other half of the paragraph quoted above. I am not questioning Russ, but rather addressing those who might single out Islam for condemnation, while ignoring the fact that Christainity has in the past incited people to similar violence.

 

[russ_watters]

A little exaggerated...This pertains to Infidels desecrating the holy land, and not to eradication of an entire race from the face of the Earth.

No, 2Cents - not exaggerated. Its #1 (join Islam) and #2 (give up your way of life) in the "what we want from you" section in his open letter to the west: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

If we don't, he wishes to destroy us. "If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation... Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people."

He may be a psychopath, but his opinion is not unique among terrorists. Palestinian terrorists have yet to step back from their stated goal of the annihilation of Israel.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

Why Europe let's in so many Muslim [edited] is really baffling. What are they trying to accomplish? Wherever Muslims are you find terrorist activity and conflict, be it in the Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, India, Israel, Russia, Bosnia, Spain... Every country in Europe with a large Muslim community has been utterly incapable of assimilating them: in Sweden they control large cities where even emergency services are unable to enter without police escort, in the Netherlands 40% live off welfare, murder artists and burn churches, in France they riot seasonally and very vocally express their hatred for their host nation. If Muslims want to keep on living in the middle ages, then do so in your own vast territories. Don't come to my West.

Before you call me "racist", the above comes from someone who naively, but sincerely, supported the Iraq invasion in the hopes of modernizing the middle east in the fashion of the successful work done in Japan and Korea, and who passionately and publicly supported the entry of Turkey into the EU.

And to the West. We DESPERATELY need to find alternative sources of energy. The only way to fix the Muslim world is to get the F*CK out of there and erect a wall to keep us separated until the modern era dawns upon them.

I noticed that this posted was edited by Russ, so I guess he's moderating, in which case I don't hold out any hope, but if there are any other moderators watching I'd just like to state before I add this [worst word possible... you know... begins with c] to my ignore list that I am incredibly surprised and disappointed that posts like this are accepted on this forum. That's all.

 

[Astronuc]

As far as Western culture is concerned, one has to admit that our obsessions with video games, pornography, gambling, sports, reality TV, etc. are not exactly desirable, and we could use a little 'back to the basics' wholesomeness ourselves.

I do participate in sports, rather than watch. As for the rest of the list - I do not engage in those activities and have no interest in doing so.

Reading books on various topics, gardening and outdoor recreation, doing family things, watching stars and celestial objects at night, and participating in science forums occupies my time when I am not working or sleeping.

 

[russ_watters]

If one adopts that position, then one must question the validity of Christianity, not just Islam!

Did you read my whole post...?

As I said, I'm not a big fan of religion in general, but to be more specific regarding Christian sects, the Catholic Church and a number of branches of Protestantism. I'm Presbyterian, which I consider one of the more benign, but there is still an awful lot that I don't like about it and I'm far from a devout follower.

 

[Anttech]

Palestinian terrorists have yet to step back from their stated goal of the annihilation of Israel.

seem like what Israel wants to do to Palestine...

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

If one adopts that position, then one must question the validity of Christianity, not just Islam!

I see your point Astronuc, and it is a good one.

But, Christianity has changed. Christianity now has taken the form of people mumbling things and singing hymns from time to time, it really doesn't have much meaning. We are far too materialist to be fundamantalists (athough there are some christian fundamentalists still) or any kind of "-ists" for that matter. And there is no concept of "infidel" in the christian church anymore.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

while can see why it's possible to be a peacful muslim,

No, I wouldn't say all (or even half) of Muslims would be characterizable as terrorists or terrorist sympathizers

Then again, when said moderators write this kind of thing, why the hell do I waste my time? It's such a shame that even in moments where you'd think the world might come together a little more, there are those who would rather widen the gap.

 

[Astronuc]

Originally Posted by Astronuc
If one adopts that position, then one must question the validity of Christianity, not just Islam!

Did you read my whole post...?

As I said, I'm not a big fan of religion in general, but to be more specific regarding Christian sects, the Catholic Church and a number of branches of Protestantism. I'm Presbyterian, which I consider one of the more benign, but there is still an awful lot that I don't like about it and I'm far from a devout follower.

Yes, but I chose to address that particular point. I was not singling you out or being critical of you. Sorry if I gave that impression.

However, I have heard Pat Roberston, Jerry Falwell, and many other fundamentalist (Christian) figures denigrating Islam and Muslims, with essentially the same polemic with which the terrorists aim at the US and other predominantly Christian cultures.

I myself am affiliated with the Unitarian Universtalist Association, but my own personal religion is more complex since it is based on years of study of all religions. I have no problem with organized religion that is true, honest, just, righteous and promotes the welfare of all mankind. I do have a problem with any religion that denigrates, or calls for the destruction or harm, of any portion of humanity.

 

[russ_watters]

seem like what Israel wants to do to Palestine...

What do you base that on? The fact that Israel is now pulling out of occupied territories so that for the first time ever, "Palestine" can exist? The fact of the matter is, Israel has never wanted anything other than its own survival and security. All of the occupied territories that they are now pulling out of were taken in defensive wars.

Frankly, it seems to me the Israelis are doing more to help in the creation of Palestine than the Palestinians and neighboring arabs ever have.

 

[russ_watters]

Yes, but I chose to address that particular point.

Ok...well, there was a lot more in that post relevant to that point. By taking it out of context, you implied that I don't question Christianity and I was relatively clear about saying that I do.

edit: missed an edit you did after this post - fair enough.

 

[Anttech]

The fact that Isrealies are bulldosing Palestine villages to make way for green belts?!
The fact that the Isrealies Put walls up round strips that they 'allow' Palestines to live in, breaking up families and not allowing Palestines to move freely..

Sharon is as much a "terrorist" as Arafat every was... The people in "Palestine" live in fear every day that perhaps a stray Isrealy bullet will kill them, (Just like that British Jornalist was, for helping a child?)... The Isrealies have absolutly no value of life, especially a Paslestine one...

 

[Hurkyl]

judging by your retoric you are from USA

Ah, doing your part to help stir up hatred, eh?

 

[Anttech]

Ah, doing your part to help stir up hatred, eh?

hmm didnt mean it to come over like that, I ment that due to him Hating Muslims and calling European Stupid for being tolerent he could only be from the States...

Well perhaps that is stirring the pot a bit oh well sorry ;-)

 

[Art]

Yes, I have. They don't compare.

Here's what the old testament says to do with non-believers

The hand of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. So thou shalt put away the evil from the midst of thee

and religious tolerance

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him

and revenge

Thine eye shall not spare him: thou shalt exact life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot

The point being all religions are blood thirsty and cruel if taken to extremes and there are as many christian fundamentalists around as muslim fundamentalists.

It is patently wrong to paint muslims as some kind of defective people because of the Koran.

Muslims are real people just like the christians, jews or whatever on this forum and have the same share of vices and virtues. Their lives are just as valuable to them as yours is to you which is why I find it so galling whan people flippantly dismiss non-combatant muslims killed by western militaries as 'acceptable collateral damage'.

The justifiable outrage expressed by most contributors with regard to the bombs in London is to be commended but I fail to understand why there is not the same level of outrage when muslims are on the receiving end.

 

[Astronuc]

Ok...well, there was a lot more in that post relevant to that point. By taking it out of context, you implied that I don't question Christianity and I was relatively clear about saying that I do.

Russ, I have great respect for your opinions regarding non-technical (e.g. politics and social issues) subjects and I agree with you on most of your political views. Of course, I think you are a great engineer.

 

[Astronuc]

The justifiable outrage expressed by most contributors with regard to the bombs in London is to be commended but I fail to understand why there is not the same level of outrage when muslims are on the receiving end.

Then put me on record as condemning any violence against any innocent population. That is the principal reason that I oppose war, and in particular the current situation in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In my opinion, from their own words, members of the Bush administration reflect a callous indifference to the death of innocents.

 

[Anttech]

The justifiable outrage expressed by most contributors with regard to the bombs in London is to be commended but I fail to understand why there is not the same level of outrage when muslims are on the receiving end.

Aggreed...

 

[Hurkyl]

If I recall correctly, one of the main religous principles that drive Islamist extremism is that "The only just law is God's law". Violence against non-Fundamentalist nations (including other Muslim nations!) is justified, and even encouraged, because it's righting the injustice of man-made laws.

Another driving factor is that of "defending one's homeland" -- with a liberal interpretation of homeland, which includes territories that were once ruled by Muslims, and even territories that merely paid tribute to Muslim leaders!

 

[Art]

If I recall correctly, one of the main religous principles that drive Islamist extremism is that "The only just law is God's law". Violence against non-Fundamentalist nations (including other Muslim nations!) is justified, and even encouraged, because it's righting the injustice of man-made laws.

Another driving factor is that of "defending one's homeland" -- with a liberal interpretation of homeland, which includes territories that were once ruled by Muslims, and even territories that merely paid tribute to Muslim leaders!

Perhaps you could jog my memory and remind me which christian countries are currently being invaded and occupied by muslim troops?

 

[Anttech]

Perhaps you could jog my memory and remind me which christian countries are currently being invaded and occupied by muslim troops?

Cyprus, but that's for another day ;-)

 

[Hurkyl]

Perhaps you could jog my memory and remind me which christian countries are currently being invaded and occupied by muslim troops?

None. Why do you ask?

We do see Islamist "troops" striking out against "Christian" countries, however.

(Islamism and Islam are not synonyms)

 

[Art]

[edite: Art - we've been patient, but there are limits. Personal attacks are not acceptable.]......Russ please explain why you have taken it upon yourself to edit out my request to Hurkyl to show consistancy and condemn your posts attacking muslims (including 1,500,000 americans).
If you are embarassed by my drawing attention to your posts I suggest you think about what you have written before hitting the submit button.

Note to other readers of this forum just so as you know what we are dealing with here Russ has already deleted this message 3 times!

 

[Art]

None. Why do you ask?

Guess it proves the old adage then 'Action speaks louder than words'

 

[Hurkyl]

Guess it proves the old adage then 'Action speaks louder than words'

If you say so. Why do you bring it up?

 

[pallidin]

Ok everyone, let's make one thing clear.
How many times has the current U.S./Allied administration specifically directed lethal attacks against "innocents" ? Ummmmm... NONE.

How many times has Al-Qaeda done this? Hmmmm. I think I need my calculator now.

 

[Bilal]

I am so busy, but may be I have to join in this difficult time ...

First I express my sympathy to the families of the victims. I do believe that more than 99% of Muslims do not agree with such barbarism.

Now I just would like to present some general short comments:

- Muslims are 20% of the world and they are majority in 55 countries. They belong to different cultures, nations, races, languages ... they have different religious sectors, different history, different mentality ... the same as Christian or Buddhists. So it is silly to generalize against this large world based on what a tiny group of people do.

- Muslims are victims in Bosnia, Palestine, Thailand .. So it is silly again to use these as examples of Islamic terrorism! While it should be examples of the reason behind the mistrust between the West and the East.

- USA and UK left OBL free to invade Iraq... this assists Alqaeda terrorists to plan such bloody attacks.

- If Islam ask to annihilate the (non Muslims) how you could explain the fact that 10% of Arab today are Christian after 1300 years of Islamic rule? So why we did not hear about ‘’ annihilation of infidels’’ as the Crusaders did in Middle Ages or as NAZI (production of western civilization) did in 2WW.

- USA created “Wahabi Muslims’’ in 80s to fight the ‘’atheists Communists’’, so it is their mistake to give power to this tiny extremist and unpopular group in Islamic world. The supporters of this group counted by ten thousands among more than one billion Muslims (the same as the support of KKK among the American or the support of NeoNazi among the German). ...

 

[Art]

If you say so. Why do you bring it up?

In reference to your quote. Just seeing how it compared with how things are being played out in the real world.[deleted]

 

[Bilal]

What about bombing of Baghdad and murdering of ten thousands of innocent Iraqi people based on lies? Or they are not count?

Unfortunately you can not claim that Bush and Blair are higher morally than OBL. Instead to invade Iraq they should finish Alqaeda first and many Muslims will support them completely. They have enough reasons to fight till the last member in Alqaeda , but their dirty war in Iraq changed everything completely. They just want to take the advantage from terrorism for their ‘’hidden agenda’’.

Ok everyone, let's make one thing clear.
How many times has the current U.S./Allied administration specifically directed lethal attacks against "innocents" ? Ummmmm... NONE.

How many times has Al-Qaeda done this? Hmmmm. I think I need my calculator now.

 

[Bilal]

I born as Muslim but I am not religious. This means in the eyes of OBL and his supporters I am not considered as Muslim.

I am willing to discuss about this topic. You claim that you read Koran and you can not compare it with Old Testament, so show me where the Koran encourage the terrorism and I will answer honestly?

Yes, I have. They don't compare.

 

[Hurkyl]

Just seeing how it compared with how things are being played out in the real world.

I'm not seeing it. How does asking about Muslims invading Christian countries have any bearing on the driving forces behind Islamist extremism?


Bilal: don't forget the murdering of innocent Iraqis by their fellow Muslims too! Surely attacks in which they are the target are at least as worthy of attention as attacks in which they were collateral damage? (whether or not you believe that one of the goals of the invasion was to make Iraq a better country for Iraqis)

 

[pallidin]

What about bombing of Baghdad and murdering of ten thousands of innocent Iraqi people based on lies? Or they are not count?

Unfortunately you can not claim that Bush and Blair are higher morally than OBL. Instead to invade Iraq they should finish Alqaeda first and many Muslims will support them completely. They have enough reasons to fight till the last member in Alqaeda , but their dirty war in Iraq changed everything completely. They just want to take the advantage from terrorism for their ‘’hidden agenda’’.

Hmmm... I was under the impression that the U.S. led coalition invasion of Iraq specifically targeted military interests and personnel.
Can you offer any evidence of a specific, directed attack on pure civilians?
I would be the FIRST to cry foul.

In contrast, Al-Qaeda seems to thrive on blowing apart 3-year old children and other innocents, be it in Iraq, London or anywhere else.

 

[Bilal]

Dear pallidin,

Do you think that UK and USA care about the number of their victims in Iraq? Could you ask first Bush and Blaire why they reject to count “officially” the civilian victims in Iraq by the occupation forces?

I do not like to make comparison between what the hell Alqaeda and those trash terrorists do with what UK and USA doing. Those people doing these attacks in the name of Islam, so I will never forgive them, I wish they will be annihilated completely and soon… they gave dirty image for our nations.

UK and USA is quiet long story and it is your problem if you do not know what the type of crimes they doing in our region since decades.

Here are some western links about the crimes in Iraq (what we see in ME media –including documentary video tapes is much horrible!):


Revealed: grim world of new Iraqi torture camps
Sunday July 3, 2005
The Observer
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1520136,00.html


Robert Fisk homepage :

Pictures of Destruction and Civilian Victims of the Anglo-American Aggression in Iraq
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

http://www.iraqvictims.com/

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min Max
22787
25814


http://www.ccmep.org/2004_articles/iraq/022204_hidden_victims_of_iraqs_war.htm

"We are not talking about one disaster. When people - and America - talk about 9/11, it is one disaster they have been talking about for three years. But there are ten to 15 9/11s that happened to this country."
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/names.htm

Named and identified victims of the war on Iraq
In remembrance
September 2004
This table lists the names of 3,029 civilians killed as a result of the US-led military intervention in Iraq up to September 12th 2004. This collection was compiled by members of the Iraq Body Count project (IBC), using a wide range of sources, primarily press and media reports. Approximately 2,000 of the names were supplied by Raed Jarrar, an Iraqi researcher who directed an on-the-ground, door-to-door survey undertaken by 150 Iraqi volunteers in the Summer of 2003 (http://civilians.info/iraq/), in collaboration with the US-based Campaign for Innocent Victims in Conflict (CIVIC) directed by Marla Ruzicka (http://www.civicworldwide.org/).

Hmmm... I was under the impression that the U.S. led coalition invasion of Iraq specifically targeted military interests and personnel.
Can you offer any evidence of a specific, directed attack on pure civilians?
I would be the FIRST to cry foul.

In contrast, Al-Qaeda seems to thrive on blowing apart 3-year old children and other innocents, be it in Iraq, London or anywhere else.

 

[Bilal]

All what happen now in Iraq is responsibility of Bush-Blaire ... they promised to stabilize this country within 3 months of occupation, but it became the worst country in the region. We never hear about Zarqawi or AL qaeda in Iraq till the Anglo-American invasion...

USA and UK are not charitable organization to lose their soldiers and to waste their money for the eyes of Iraqi people! Saddam is bad but surely he is not the worse dictator, may be Karimuv (personal friend of Bush) is classified as the worse by human right organizations since many years. ...

Do not forget that all wars started for creating permanent peace! Even Hitler invaded Europe to stabilize it and to convert it to peaceful paradise.

Wars create only more wars and no civilized human believe in wars.

I'm not seeing it. How does asking about Muslims invading Christian countries have any bearing on the driving forces behind Islamist extremism?


Bilal: don't forget the murdering of innocent Iraqis by their fellow Muslims too! Surely attacks in which they are the target are at least as worthy of attention as attacks in which they were collateral damage? (whether or not you believe that one of the goals of the invasion was to make Iraq a better country for Iraqis)

 

[russ_watters]

Russ, I have great respect for your opinions regarding non-technical (e.g. politics and social issues) subjects and I agree with you on most of your political views. Of course, I think you are a great engineer.

We're ok - I'm just opinionated.

 

[russ_watters]

I am willing to discuss about this topic. You claim that you read Koran and you can not compare it with Old Testament, so show me where the Koran encourage the terrorism and I will answer honestly?

I did not say the Koran encourages terrorism, I said it is easy to interpret the Koran in such a way as to allow/justify it. You may think the difference is subtle, but it is an important one.

However, I'm not going to do much more discussion here. This has turned into a call-Russ-names-fest. No, it wasn't you, but the whole tone of the thread has dropped beyond repair.

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

I did not say the Koran encourages terrorism, I said it is easy to interpret the Koran in such a way as to allow/justify it. You may think the difference is subtle, but it is an important one.

Perhaps the main difference is that in Islam there is the notion of "jihad", which has two main meanings (according to wikipedia):

Muslims often refer to two meanings of jihad by citing a hadith recorded by Imam Baihaqi and al-Khatib al-Baghdadi (even though its isnad is categorized as "weak"):

* "lesser (outer) jihad" — a military struggle, i.e. a "holy war"
* "greater (inner) jihad" — the struggle of personal self-improvement against the self's base desires

This leaves the door open to the possibility of violence, depending upon how one (or Islamic authorities) interprets the meaning of "jihad". There is no such notion in the new testament of the christian bible. Infact, Jesus was a figure of peace and those who used christianity as a source of violence (such as during the Crusades) were actually going against the teachings of Jesus.

And, regardless of how one may interpret "jihad", is the fact that Mohammed was himself a military leader, which many see as an indication that terrorism and Islam will always be intrinsically linked, unless the Islamic faith were to undergo some kind of reformation.

 

[russ_watters]

One last thing I missed before. I didn't directly respond to this second sentence:

Yes but russ you still need to keep an open mind. You cannot condemn an entire religion because of this.

I did not and do not condemn the entire religion.

 

[Hurkyl]

Wars create only more wars and no civilized human believe in wars.

It's a pretty thought, but it sounds like wishful thinking to me. Even within civilized societies we need things like police and swat teams: I've not really seen a convincing argument that war is something civilized society can abandon all together.

 

[Evo]

And, regardless of how one may interpret "jihad", is the fact that Mohammed was himself a military leader, which many see as an indication that terrorism and Islam will always be intrinsically linked, unless the Islamic faith were to undergo some kind of reformation.

Funny you should mention that, but I was thinking earlier that it's time for serious reformation. The change will have to come from within. Is there a movement among Muslims to reform the religion and get rid of the negative aspects?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Funny you should mention that, but I was thinking earlier that it's time for serious reformation. The change will have to come from within. Is there a movement among Muslims to reform the religion and get rid of the negative aspects?

I don't think there really are any negative aspects of the Koran. It all depends on the interpretation. There are and have been so many different sects of the religion with their own philosophies and histories that you can't help but expect there will be people who see the religion differantly. There are sects that are as peaceful as buddhists.

 

[SOS2008]

I born as Muslim but I am not religious. This means in the eyes of OBL and his supporters I am not considered as Muslim.

I am willing to discuss about this topic. You claim that you read Koran and you can not compare it with Old Testament, so show me where the Koran encourage the terrorism and I will answer honestly?

Though this is going OT, I know it has been posted several times that the three major religions share similar beliefs up to Abraham (in other words, the Old Testament). The old law, for example as quoted earlier by another member - an eye for an eye, is still a belief in Islam for this reason--though not typically practiced in exchange for greater rewards later. I agree with Bilal that the Koran most certainly can be compared with the Old Testament, as well as the Torah.

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

Funny you should mention that, but I was thinking earlier that it's time for serious reformation. The change will have to come from within. Is there a movement among Muslims to reform the religion and get rid of the negative aspects?

Yes, it would have to come from within. Perhaps one of their religious leaders would take that up as a cause, and others would follow. This would, however, produce yet another "brand" of Islam in addition to the Sunni, Shiite, etc. Since that would have the seeming effect of de-uniting Islam in the short-term, it's hard to imagine that happening anytime soon. Only after suffering more tragedy, as preceeded the Protestant Reformation, will such a thing be considered - and even if that does happen there is no guarantee that it won't be followed by yet more internal fighting amongst the Islamic factions (in analogy to the 30 Years War).

 

[Evo]

I don't think there really are any negative aspects of the Koran. It all depends on the interpretation. There are and have been so many different sects of the religion with their own philosophies and histories that you can't help but expect there will be people who see the religion differantly. There are sects that are as peaceful as buddhists.

There are many negatives, for example women are discriminated against, they are not the equals of men, they are forced to wear headscarves. I remember reading some time ago writings of Mohammed and if I recall correctly, he blamed women for men's shortcomings. It wasn't that men were weak, women were evil. Maybe that's over simplifying it, but I remember getting ticked off.