News What Caused the Recent Bombings in London?

[russ_watters]

If one adopts that position, then one must question the validity of Christianity, not just Islam!

Did you read my whole post...?

As I said, I'm not a big fan of religion in general, but to be more specific regarding Christian sects, the Catholic Church and a number of branches of Protestantism. I'm Presbyterian, which I consider one of the more benign, but there is still an awful lot that I don't like about it and I'm far from a devout follower.

 

[Anttech]

Palestinian terrorists have yet to step back from their stated goal of the annihilation of Israel.

seem like what Israel wants to do to Palestine...

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

If one adopts that position, then one must question the validity of Christianity, not just Islam!

I see your point Astronuc, and it is a good one.

But, Christianity has changed. Christianity now has taken the form of people mumbling things and singing hymns from time to time, it really doesn't have much meaning. We are far too materialist to be fundamantalists (athough there are some christian fundamentalists still) or any kind of "-ists" for that matter. And there is no concept of "infidel" in the christian church anymore.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

while can see why it's possible to be a peacful muslim,

No, I wouldn't say all (or even half) of Muslims would be characterizable as terrorists or terrorist sympathizers

Then again, when said moderators write this kind of thing, why the hell do I waste my time? It's such a shame that even in moments where you'd think the world might come together a little more, there are those who would rather widen the gap.

 

[Astronuc]

Originally Posted by Astronuc
If one adopts that position, then one must question the validity of Christianity, not just Islam!

Did you read my whole post...?

As I said, I'm not a big fan of religion in general, but to be more specific regarding Christian sects, the Catholic Church and a number of branches of Protestantism. I'm Presbyterian, which I consider one of the more benign, but there is still an awful lot that I don't like about it and I'm far from a devout follower.

Yes, but I chose to address that particular point. I was not singling you out or being critical of you. Sorry if I gave that impression.

However, I have heard Pat Roberston, Jerry Falwell, and many other fundamentalist (Christian) figures denigrating Islam and Muslims, with essentially the same polemic with which the terrorists aim at the US and other predominantly Christian cultures.

I myself am affiliated with the Unitarian Universtalist Association, but my own personal religion is more complex since it is based on years of study of all religions. I have no problem with organized religion that is true, honest, just, righteous and promotes the welfare of all mankind. I do have a problem with any religion that denigrates, or calls for the destruction or harm, of any portion of humanity.

 

[russ_watters]

seem like what Israel wants to do to Palestine...

What do you base that on? The fact that Israel is now pulling out of occupied territories so that for the first time ever, "Palestine" can exist? The fact of the matter is, Israel has never wanted anything other than its own survival and security. All of the occupied territories that they are now pulling out of were taken in defensive wars.

Frankly, it seems to me the Israelis are doing more to help in the creation of Palestine than the Palestinians and neighboring arabs ever have.

 

[russ_watters]

Yes, but I chose to address that particular point.

Ok...well, there was a lot more in that post relevant to that point. By taking it out of context, you implied that I don't question Christianity and I was relatively clear about saying that I do.

edit: missed an edit you did after this post - fair enough.

 

[Anttech]

The fact that Isrealies are bulldosing Palestine villages to make way for green belts?!
The fact that the Isrealies Put walls up round strips that they 'allow' Palestines to live in, breaking up families and not allowing Palestines to move freely..

Sharon is as much a "terrorist" as Arafat every was... The people in "Palestine" live in fear every day that perhaps a stray Isrealy bullet will kill them, (Just like that British Jornalist was, for helping a child?)... The Isrealies have absolutly no value of life, especially a Paslestine one...

 

[Hurkyl]

judging by your retoric you are from USA

Ah, doing your part to help stir up hatred, eh?

 

[Anttech]

Ah, doing your part to help stir up hatred, eh?

hmm didnt mean it to come over like that, I ment that due to him Hating Muslims and calling European Stupid for being tolerent he could only be from the States...

Well perhaps that is stirring the pot a bit oh well sorry ;-)

 

[Art]

Yes, I have. They don't compare.

Here's what the old testament says to do with non-believers

The hand of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. So thou shalt put away the evil from the midst of thee

and religious tolerance

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him

and revenge

Thine eye shall not spare him: thou shalt exact life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot

The point being all religions are blood thirsty and cruel if taken to extremes and there are as many christian fundamentalists around as muslim fundamentalists.

It is patently wrong to paint muslims as some kind of defective people because of the Koran.

Muslims are real people just like the christians, jews or whatever on this forum and have the same share of vices and virtues. Their lives are just as valuable to them as yours is to you which is why I find it so galling whan people flippantly dismiss non-combatant muslims killed by western militaries as 'acceptable collateral damage'.

The justifiable outrage expressed by most contributors with regard to the bombs in London is to be commended but I fail to understand why there is not the same level of outrage when muslims are on the receiving end.

 

[Astronuc]

Ok...well, there was a lot more in that post relevant to that point. By taking it out of context, you implied that I don't question Christianity and I was relatively clear about saying that I do.

Russ, I have great respect for your opinions regarding non-technical (e.g. politics and social issues) subjects and I agree with you on most of your political views. Of course, I think you are a great engineer.

 

[Astronuc]

The justifiable outrage expressed by most contributors with regard to the bombs in London is to be commended but I fail to understand why there is not the same level of outrage when muslims are on the receiving end.

Then put me on record as condemning any violence against any innocent population. That is the principal reason that I oppose war, and in particular the current situation in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In my opinion, from their own words, members of the Bush administration reflect a callous indifference to the death of innocents.

 

[Anttech]

The justifiable outrage expressed by most contributors with regard to the bombs in London is to be commended but I fail to understand why there is not the same level of outrage when muslims are on the receiving end.

Aggreed...

 

[Hurkyl]

If I recall correctly, one of the main religous principles that drive Islamist extremism is that "The only just law is God's law". Violence against non-Fundamentalist nations (including other Muslim nations!) is justified, and even encouraged, because it's righting the injustice of man-made laws.

Another driving factor is that of "defending one's homeland" -- with a liberal interpretation of homeland, which includes territories that were once ruled by Muslims, and even territories that merely paid tribute to Muslim leaders!

 

[Art]

If I recall correctly, one of the main religous principles that drive Islamist extremism is that "The only just law is God's law". Violence against non-Fundamentalist nations (including other Muslim nations!) is justified, and even encouraged, because it's righting the injustice of man-made laws.

Another driving factor is that of "defending one's homeland" -- with a liberal interpretation of homeland, which includes territories that were once ruled by Muslims, and even territories that merely paid tribute to Muslim leaders!

Perhaps you could jog my memory and remind me which christian countries are currently being invaded and occupied by muslim troops?

 

[Anttech]

Perhaps you could jog my memory and remind me which christian countries are currently being invaded and occupied by muslim troops?

Cyprus, but that's for another day ;-)

 

[Hurkyl]

Perhaps you could jog my memory and remind me which christian countries are currently being invaded and occupied by muslim troops?

None. Why do you ask?

We do see Islamist "troops" striking out against "Christian" countries, however.

(Islamism and Islam are not synonyms)

 

[Art]

[edite: Art - we've been patient, but there are limits. Personal attacks are not acceptable.]......Russ please explain why you have taken it upon yourself to edit out my request to Hurkyl to show consistancy and condemn your posts attacking muslims (including 1,500,000 americans).
If you are embarassed by my drawing attention to your posts I suggest you think about what you have written before hitting the submit button.

Note to other readers of this forum just so as you know what we are dealing with here Russ has already deleted this message 3 times!

 

[Art]

None. Why do you ask?

Guess it proves the old adage then 'Action speaks louder than words'

 

[Hurkyl]

Guess it proves the old adage then 'Action speaks louder than words'

If you say so. Why do you bring it up?

 

[pallidin]

Ok everyone, let's make one thing clear.
How many times has the current U.S./Allied administration specifically directed lethal attacks against "innocents" ? Ummmmm... NONE.

How many times has Al-Qaeda done this? Hmmmm. I think I need my calculator now.

 

[Bilal]

I am so busy, but may be I have to join in this difficult time ...

First I express my sympathy to the families of the victims. I do believe that more than 99% of Muslims do not agree with such barbarism.

Now I just would like to present some general short comments:

- Muslims are 20% of the world and they are majority in 55 countries. They belong to different cultures, nations, races, languages ... they have different religious sectors, different history, different mentality ... the same as Christian or Buddhists. So it is silly to generalize against this large world based on what a tiny group of people do.

- Muslims are victims in Bosnia, Palestine, Thailand .. So it is silly again to use these as examples of Islamic terrorism! While it should be examples of the reason behind the mistrust between the West and the East.

- USA and UK left OBL free to invade Iraq... this assists Alqaeda terrorists to plan such bloody attacks.

- If Islam ask to annihilate the (non Muslims) how you could explain the fact that 10% of Arab today are Christian after 1300 years of Islamic rule? So why we did not hear about ‘’ annihilation of infidels’’ as the Crusaders did in Middle Ages or as NAZI (production of western civilization) did in 2WW.

- USA created “Wahabi Muslims’’ in 80s to fight the ‘’atheists Communists’’, so it is their mistake to give power to this tiny extremist and unpopular group in Islamic world. The supporters of this group counted by ten thousands among more than one billion Muslims (the same as the support of KKK among the American or the support of NeoNazi among the German). ...

 

[Art]

If you say so. Why do you bring it up?

In reference to your quote. Just seeing how it compared with how things are being played out in the real world.[deleted]

 

[Bilal]

What about bombing of Baghdad and murdering of ten thousands of innocent Iraqi people based on lies? Or they are not count?

Unfortunately you can not claim that Bush and Blair are higher morally than OBL. Instead to invade Iraq they should finish Alqaeda first and many Muslims will support them completely. They have enough reasons to fight till the last member in Alqaeda , but their dirty war in Iraq changed everything completely. They just want to take the advantage from terrorism for their ‘’hidden agenda’’.

Ok everyone, let's make one thing clear.
How many times has the current U.S./Allied administration specifically directed lethal attacks against "innocents" ? Ummmmm... NONE.

How many times has Al-Qaeda done this? Hmmmm. I think I need my calculator now.

 

[Bilal]

I born as Muslim but I am not religious. This means in the eyes of OBL and his supporters I am not considered as Muslim.

I am willing to discuss about this topic. You claim that you read Koran and you can not compare it with Old Testament, so show me where the Koran encourage the terrorism and I will answer honestly?

Yes, I have. They don't compare.

 

[Hurkyl]

Just seeing how it compared with how things are being played out in the real world.

I'm not seeing it. How does asking about Muslims invading Christian countries have any bearing on the driving forces behind Islamist extremism?


Bilal: don't forget the murdering of innocent Iraqis by their fellow Muslims too! Surely attacks in which they are the target are at least as worthy of attention as attacks in which they were collateral damage? (whether or not you believe that one of the goals of the invasion was to make Iraq a better country for Iraqis)

 

[pallidin]

What about bombing of Baghdad and murdering of ten thousands of innocent Iraqi people based on lies? Or they are not count?

Unfortunately you can not claim that Bush and Blair are higher morally than OBL. Instead to invade Iraq they should finish Alqaeda first and many Muslims will support them completely. They have enough reasons to fight till the last member in Alqaeda , but their dirty war in Iraq changed everything completely. They just want to take the advantage from terrorism for their ‘’hidden agenda’’.

Hmmm... I was under the impression that the U.S. led coalition invasion of Iraq specifically targeted military interests and personnel.
Can you offer any evidence of a specific, directed attack on pure civilians?
I would be the FIRST to cry foul.

In contrast, Al-Qaeda seems to thrive on blowing apart 3-year old children and other innocents, be it in Iraq, London or anywhere else.

 

[Bilal]

Dear pallidin,

Do you think that UK and USA care about the number of their victims in Iraq? Could you ask first Bush and Blaire why they reject to count “officially” the civilian victims in Iraq by the occupation forces?

I do not like to make comparison between what the hell Alqaeda and those trash terrorists do with what UK and USA doing. Those people doing these attacks in the name of Islam, so I will never forgive them, I wish they will be annihilated completely and soon… they gave dirty image for our nations.

UK and USA is quiet long story and it is your problem if you do not know what the type of crimes they doing in our region since decades.

Here are some western links about the crimes in Iraq (what we see in ME media –including documentary video tapes is much horrible!):


Revealed: grim world of new Iraqi torture camps
Sunday July 3, 2005
The Observer
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1520136,00.html


Robert Fisk homepage :

Pictures of Destruction and Civilian Victims of the Anglo-American Aggression in Iraq
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

http://www.iraqvictims.com/

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min Max
22787
25814


http://www.ccmep.org/2004_articles/iraq/022204_hidden_victims_of_iraqs_war.htm

"We are not talking about one disaster. When people - and America - talk about 9/11, it is one disaster they have been talking about for three years. But there are ten to 15 9/11s that happened to this country."
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/names.htm

Named and identified victims of the war on Iraq
In remembrance
September 2004
This table lists the names of 3,029 civilians killed as a result of the US-led military intervention in Iraq up to September 12th 2004. This collection was compiled by members of the Iraq Body Count project (IBC), using a wide range of sources, primarily press and media reports. Approximately 2,000 of the names were supplied by Raed Jarrar, an Iraqi researcher who directed an on-the-ground, door-to-door survey undertaken by 150 Iraqi volunteers in the Summer of 2003 (http://civilians.info/iraq/), in collaboration with the US-based Campaign for Innocent Victims in Conflict (CIVIC) directed by Marla Ruzicka (http://www.civicworldwide.org/).

Hmmm... I was under the impression that the U.S. led coalition invasion of Iraq specifically targeted military interests and personnel.
Can you offer any evidence of a specific, directed attack on pure civilians?
I would be the FIRST to cry foul.

In contrast, Al-Qaeda seems to thrive on blowing apart 3-year old children and other innocents, be it in Iraq, London or anywhere else.

 

[Bilal]

All what happen now in Iraq is responsibility of Bush-Blaire ... they promised to stabilize this country within 3 months of occupation, but it became the worst country in the region. We never hear about Zarqawi or AL qaeda in Iraq till the Anglo-American invasion...

USA and UK are not charitable organization to lose their soldiers and to waste their money for the eyes of Iraqi people! Saddam is bad but surely he is not the worse dictator, may be Karimuv (personal friend of Bush) is classified as the worse by human right organizations since many years. ...

Do not forget that all wars started for creating permanent peace! Even Hitler invaded Europe to stabilize it and to convert it to peaceful paradise.

Wars create only more wars and no civilized human believe in wars.

I'm not seeing it. How does asking about Muslims invading Christian countries have any bearing on the driving forces behind Islamist extremism?


Bilal: don't forget the murdering of innocent Iraqis by their fellow Muslims too! Surely attacks in which they are the target are at least as worthy of attention as attacks in which they were collateral damage? (whether or not you believe that one of the goals of the invasion was to make Iraq a better country for Iraqis)