Does Observation Truly Collapse a Wave Function?

[peter0302]

Because I think the QM forum moderators are rightfully getting sick of arguments over the interpretive aspects of QM which are not science because they cannot be experimentally tested and make no useful predictions.

 

[Coldcall]

I agree this is the right place for this discussion as the "measurement problem" is clearly foundational from a philosophical point of view.

My personal view is that science lost the right to discuss philosophical concerns once they started trying to pull the wool over people's eyes about the observer controversy.
I take the view that "shut up and claculate" was physics opting out of the deeper implications.

 

[Coldcall]

Because I think the QM forum moderators are rightfully getting sick of arguments over the interpretive aspects of QM which are not science because they cannot be experimentally tested and make no useful predictions.

I agree as i said on the other post; however there is a contradiction at play because even on physics forums we are told there is no more measurement problem due to either MWI or decoherence. Thats just ********. So while i agree that philosophy is the right place for this discussion the physics community cheat on this rule because they then claim one of the other interpretations as being the "right way" to ignore the paradox.

So science is acting like it wants its cake and to eat it as well. If one brings up an interpetation which phycists do not like then they claim one is going off the scope of physics debate, however they bandy about MWI or decoherence as if they have more legitimacy.

So as with qm itself, there is a strange paradox at play within the physics community over interpretations.

 

[peter0302]

It certainly can be a little subjective at times. It all depends on where the discussion is headed. I suggested awhile back a forum dedicated to quantum interpretation, where both scientific and philosophical discussions would be permitted, but I was told that they preferred to use the Philosophy forum for quantum discussions that got too far afield from science.

 

[Coldcall]

It certainly can be a little subjective at times. It all depends on where the discussion is headed. I suggested awhile back a forum dedicated to quantum interpretation, where both scientific and philosophical discussions would be permitted, but I was told that they preferred to use the Philosophy forum for quantum discussions that got too far afield from science.

That's a great idea! I would love such a forum because qm could be the first genuine metaphysical science humans have encountered. And i mean metaphysical in the right way, as in based on sound physics

My view is that speculation is a good thing as long as its based on known facts. using that factual platform speculation is a viable method to reach the next level in understanding nature and reality. Problem is filtering the reasonable from the not so reasonable but physics should be the decider. If something is possible within the known physical contraints then i think its valid.

Unfortunately "what the bleep..." and films like that make it harder to have a sensible discussion on these important issues.

 

[Pythagorean]

"So we've received information from the past, but we haven't affected the past by observing it."

There is still some question about whether our observations can actually affect the past. No-one is saying we can travel/communicate backwards in time, but if one considers "Wheelers Delayed Choice" then it implies our "choice" of observations under certain ciricumstances have a backward causal effect. Actually its a facinating experiment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler's_delayed_choice_experiment

On the quantum level, perhaps (there's still a question of whether or not this is just a restriction on how we observe), but this doesn't have a lot to do with the past as we know it. We can't travel/communicate backwards in time because we experience time very differently than the quantum particle does. In the same way, it's equally difficult to draw serious philosophical conclusions based on quantum physics.

"If a comet lands in your house and pummels you in your sleep before you wake up, do you not die since you didn't observe it? Do you hang out in limbo until someone else comes along and observes it? Wouldn't we be able to use such a principal to go beyond the limitations (physical laws) of the universe?"

Yes but you have to remember that we know that quantum weirdness (for want of a better word) mainfests itself very differently or not at all in macrocopic objects.

This is the point I was making. You previous post:

Do you think that this happens randomly in nature without an observer or scientist firing the photon at the particle? And if so how do we get evidence for it occurring? How do we observer without observing?

The heart of the matter and why modern interpretations try to eject the observer is because if an observer really is required then we live in a somewhat subjective universe in which obsevers play a central role. It would sort of contradict Copernican reasoning.

I would assume 'universe' (the way you're using it) is a macroscopic term.

 

[Coldcall]

Pythagorean,

"On the quantum level, perhaps (there's still a question of whether or not this is just a restriction on how we observe), but this doesn't have a lot to do with the past as we know it. We can't travel/communicate backwards in time because we experience time very differently than the quantum particle does."

Yes i don't think qm has ever suggested a way to carry information backwards in time. However retro-causality is a real phenomenom as demonstrated in Delayed choice, quantum eraser etc...

I agree the question about observership is very hard but we cannot ignore the evidence. We may be able to treat it as an un-intended paradox but to not take it seriously is scientifically regressive in my point of view.

"I would assume 'universe' (the way you're using it) is a macroscopic term."

Yes subjective on a macroscopic level too. However we also have a global reality, which can be seen as the reality we all agree on so it is unchanging - more or less. However new things that no-one may know about come from the subjective un-defined realm and when we discover them they join into the "known" or entangled global reality. So there is actually a subjective-objectivity to it all...if that makes any sense.

 

[QUANTUMQ]

why is there seemingly a lack of interest in the physics world into what subjectivity is when it seems to play a very important role?

 

[f95toli]

Because most physicists that work with QM phenomena belong to the "shut up and calculate" school of thought. People have been discussing various interpretations for several decades now and there hasn't been much progress; mainly because no one has been able to come up with a way to test anything experimentally. Most physicists (including me) simply find the discussion boring and frankly quite pointless.
But at the time we have made HUGE progress when it comes to understanding causes of decoherence, Bell-type tests etc. and this is a VERY active field of research, but most of the issues have nothing to do with philosophy.
To give you a concrete example: the main problem in solid state quantum computing at the moment is the presence of two-level fluctuators in the materials (unpaired electrons and other defects), THEY are what is causing the "wavefunction to collapse" after a few microseconds and by removing them we hope to extend the coherence times by at least a factor of ten, but in in order to achive this you need people who are interested in materials science, not philosophy.
Hence, there are plenty of very technical problems to worry about, and if your goal is to e.g. build a practical quantum computer most philosophical arguments are simply irrelevant.

 

[baywax]

How would we know if a wave function collapsed or not without an observer being present?

 

[QUANTUMQ]

i did ask the question "since two particles can be entangled, are the wave functions of these two particles entangled before they collapse? and is a wave function collapse perminent?" but it got lost in the philosophy discussion, so is there any answers on the original question?

 

[yasiru89]

i did ask the question "since two particles can be entangled, are the wave functions of these two particles entangled before they collapse? and is a wave function collapse perminent?" but it got lost in the philosophy discussion, so is there any answers on the original question?

This has ultimately come down to a matter of interpretation. The interaction/observation is what collapses a wave-function, but its quite true that, given an interaction is not observed the systems (we'll say particles for convenience) will entangle. Thus the matter comes down to what constitutes an observation. Of course, for all practical purposes, the Copenhagen interpretation circumvents this matter completely- but seeing as this is the philosophy discussion, I will take the liberty to introduce Eugene Wigner's thought experiment 'Wigner's friend', which raises, more bluntly than ever, the same problem Schroedinger's cat presents (though of course, both are irrelavent to the actual physical application of quantum theory). Wigner considers this as decisive that consciousness has a role to play in collapse.


See Eugene P. Wigner, Symmetries and Reflections: Scientific Essays (MIT Press, 1970)

 

[ThomasT]

what is it that actually collapses a wave function, an observer? what constitutes an observer? also is it true that everything has a wave function, because if it does who collapsed the universes wave function
some may say wave function collapse only works on the quantum level but the universe was sub atomic sive at the time of the BIG BANG.

can resistance in space-time also collapse wavefunctions

if a person collapses a wave function by looking (observing) where does light come into the question. for the person to actually make the observation the light has to travel from the wavefunction to tge persons eye, what if the light is intercepted by another persons eye.

also how can light wave function collapse?

The collapse of the wavefunction might be a misleading way of characterizing what happens when qualitative results are obtained, ie., when detections are irreversibly recorded, if wavefunction collapse is taken to mean that there's some qualitative knowledge of what's happening in some underlying quantum reality.

QM wavefunctions might correspond in some way to what's happening in the deep reality of quantum level processes, but there's no way to precisely ascertain that. And, according to one interpretation of quantum theory, the Copenhagen Interpretation, the existence of a fundamental quantum of action (the principle component of any flavor of the quantum theory) precludes our ever having any qualitative knowledge of a quantum scale reality that underlies instrumental behavior.

What is known is that QM wavefunctions are mathematical tools that describe the expected frequency distributions of the results of quantum experiments. These probability distributions, which associate certain values with certain possible instrumental behaviors, apply to specific experimental preparations, or classes of similar preparations, and describe, and have physical meaning only with regard to, the expected statistical distributions of large accumulations of individual trial results.

I don't know of any reports of any observations of any qm wavefunction ever collapsing.

On the other hand, we're in the philosophy forum so feel free to analogize qm wavefunctions with some sort of real wavelike disturbance -- like the ripples produced when you drop a stone into a calm pool of water. Put some obstacles/filters in the paths of the waves and see what happens.

Another cool thing to do is to put some sand or other finely particulate stuff on a drumhead and then set the drum to vibrating. Try different vibrational frequencies and see what sorts of standing wave patterns you can produce in the particulate stuff.

There are lots of simulations of wave behavior on the web. I don't have any links handy, but just Google stuff about waves and you should get some interesting hits.

 

[baywax]

why is there seemingly a lack of interest in the physics world into what subjectivity is when it seems to play a very important role?

I think physicists like to avoid subjectivity because subjectivity leads each individual to a separate conclusion with few instances where there is an agreement on a cause or an effect.

When numerical observations match-up there is little room for disagreement on a subjective basis since numbers are quantifiably the same in a mathematical and universal sense.

So, when I say something is blue, someone else will disagree and say its aqua. But if I give them the percentages of cyan, yellow, magenta and black there is no dispute regarding the value of the colour of a pigment. Same with light, if I give you the values and percentages of red, blue and green we can immediately agree on the quality of the colour of light.

 

[wawenspop]

This has ultimately come down to a matter of interpretation. The interaction/observation is what collapses a wave-function, but its quite true that, given an interaction is not observed the systems (we'll say particles for convenience) will entangle. Thus the matter comes down to what constitutes an observation. Of course, for all practical purposes, the Copenhagen interpretation circumvents this matter completely- but seeing as this is the philosophy discussion, I will take the liberty to introduce Eugene Wigner's thought experiment 'Wigner's friend', which raises, more bluntly than ever, the same problem Schroedinger's cat presents (though of course, both are irrelavent to the actual physical application of quantum theory). Wigner considers this as decisive that consciousness has a role to play in collapse.


See Eugene P. Wigner, Symmetries and Reflections: Scientific Essays (MIT Press, 1970)

The exact position of an electron (if that's the observable measured) is at the time of observation - ONLY.

The 'observer' was a terrible red herring brought about by the inability to comprehend superposition. So for example we had absurdities like 'how can a particle spin both ways at once' - Schrodingers cat is another absurd, historical example. The main line of the Copenhagen overcomes them.

Its not as if an electron suddenly becomes a tiny gray ball at a known position on decoherence. The electron remains a probablistic cloud - for want of a better description. Its position is only known exactly at the time of measurement, then its back to probabilities again - immediately.

 

[DaveC426913]

The 'observer' was a terrible red herring brought about by the inability to comprehend superposition. So for example we had absurdities like 'how can a particle spin both ways at once' - Schrodingers cat is another absurd, historical example. The main line of the Copenhagen overcomes them.

Are you saying that the concept of superposition eliminates the paradox of the Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment?

 

[wawenspop]

Are you saying that the concept of superposition eliminates the paradox of the Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment?

The cat was in the days when they were trying to hang on to electrons as particles rather than wave packets. You might say that a cat can spin two ways at once, that's absurd in the same way as dead and alive cats.

But if the cat were quantum sized, then sure 'it' can - because its a wave packet (probabilities) and no longer a little gray ball (or cat like thing).

I am not trying to be clever here. I assume we believe the main line of Copenhagen here and not MWI etc. I cannot see how you could accept the cat story at all.
Please make your point to prove me wrong!

 

[QUANTUMQ]

The exact position of an electron (if that's the observable measured) is at the time of observation - ONLY.

The 'observer' was a terrible red herring brought about by the inability to comprehend superposition. So for example we had absurdities like 'how can a particle spin both ways at once' - Schrodingers cat is another absurd, historical example. The main line of the Copenhagen overcomes them.

Its not as if an electron suddenly becomes a tiny gray ball at a known position on decoherence. The electron remains a probablistic cloud - for want of a better description. Its position is only known exactly at the time of measurement, then its back to probabilities again - immediately.

so is that to say that a wavefunction does not collapse, but just gives the appearence of a collapse

 

[wawenspop]

so is that to say that a wavefunction does not collapse, but just gives the appearence of a collapse

The wavefunction *realigns itself*, so if the first wave function had a probability (for say position), & then if that position were to be 'observed', then its position state would be a new probability after observation. Observation would be something like a collision with a photon or similar.

Imagine a violin string vibrating - then get a snapshot (which might change its phase) - then its still vibrating. i.e. it does not stop vibrating. -remember a violin string vibrating is only partially analogous to a wave function.