Evo said:Well, at my age, I don't mind being called a girl. Just don't call me "ma'am".
Ah, I didn't think of that, since circumcision is fairly normal in the Judeo-Christian tradition. I guess one may consider it a form of mutilation, and the hygiene issue is still debated.Moonbear said:That's not what I thought he meant. I was pretty sure he was referring to circumcision. But, it was somewhat ambiguous.
I don't think women addressing women as 'girls', or men addressing men as 'boys' is as big a deal as is one referring to the opposite gender.Moonbear said:
Some men that is. Perhaps most, but not all.Russ said:
fi said:
That's exactly my point: if its virtually always a term of endearment and the intent is clear, what's the problem? - which is why I don't agree with this:pattylou said:
Well, yeah - that's how communication works, isn't it? Its up to the person making the comment to be clear in their intent (which is why I said in the previous post that knowing someone well enough to know they will understand what you are saying is important), but the person hearing it and reacting has an equal responsibility to make sure they understand before reacting. You seem to be saying that even if someone knows they aren't being insulted (and they know that how a word is being used is a common usage) they can still react as if they are being insulted. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Of course - but I must say I'm very surprised by the friction this has caused. I've never even heard of anyone having a problem with this before. And I'm having trouble thinking of common contexts where it would be insulting - it seems to me that it is by far most commonly used as a term of endearment.
Except her examples weren't of usage of "boy" or "baby" as a term of endearment, but as patronization.russ_watters said:
The word is in common usage as a carryover from times when women were less respected than men, and continues to be used in that context. To use a term that is patronizing, even if you don't intend insult, is still insulting. It implies a dominant/subordinate or superior/inferior relationship to refer to someone else by a name usually reserved for a child.
russ_watters said:
G'day fi.fi said:Hi, Astonuc sorry to be ambiguous. Moonbear was right about what I said, but not about my sex, I'm female, happy to be called a girl or woman. I do happen to know circumcision in Aussie men is common.
Moonbear - was pretty sure he was referring to circumcision
I'm an atypcial Aussie male, but I can vouch for the custom/tradition to which you were referring. Oh, you poor woman.fi said:
I take it he's not an ocker. pattylou said:
I've met a number of women, and even some girls, that don't like to be referred to as sweetheart. It really just comes down to the individual.Patty said:
I think it comes down to the relationship and familiarity.TheStatutoryApe said:
There does seem to be some merit to this statement, but I think it more the case since the 1990's than say the 1960's or 1970's. Not only is it generational, but also seems to be a recent development.TheStatutoryApe said:
And if a person with dark skin coloring told you that a certain term that begins with the letter N is insulting, yet you meant no insult in using it, does that make it any less insulting or okay to continue using the term?TheStatutoryApe said:
I hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty close to your age too, and it has mattered to me for a good 10-15 years already, as it mattered to the other women at my college who continually corrected the men in our classes.
Well, there you have it, it must be associated with wine preference.
I prefer white wine, but not chardonnay. Occassionally I enjoy a shiraz or pinot noir (never merlot), but generally I lean toward white wines.Astronuc said:As for red wines, Lembergers are very good, particularly from Washington State (Columbia and Yakima Valleys) and apparently now Oregon, which one might like if one likes Merlots. I haven't been out there recently, but 10-15 years ago, they had some outstanding wines.
Australia produces some outstanding Shiraz (as well as Lemberger and others), but these are more like Cabernet Sauvignon than Merlot.
I had a bottle of Black Swan Shiraz (sorry forgot what year), and it was pretty good. I have a bottle of Amaroo Shiraz 2002, that I've been waiting to try. Sounds like a good time.
Astronuc said:
(Or I responded with some nauseating term, like, "Yes snookypookums?" and threatened to stick him with that name if he kept using those generic "endearments.") If he wanted to use a term of endearment, it had to be more original. "Blondie" started out entirely as a joke in response to my complaints about terms of endearment; he used it purposely to ruffle my feathers and we both knew that was his intent, but somehow it morphed then into our inside joke, that when I had a bad day and he wanted to cheer me up, he'd call me that just to get me mad, which got me to forget what was bothering me before that, and then he'd offer to kiss and make up, and then the bad mood went away. 
Over time, it stopped bugging me but he only ever used it when something was bothering me and I needed cheering up. Black Swan is pretty good...no idea what year it was. I've also been enjoying a very tasty Jacob's Creek Reserve Shiraz (2000). It's a modestly priced one too. But I think I only have one bottle left, and I didn't like the 2001 as much. Haven't tried the more recent years (if they are out yet). Jacob's Creek also makes a tasty Reisling. But, you have to get their Reserve wines; the other cheaper ones they make are not very good at all (I'm not afraid to try inexpensive wines - I've come across some very tasty ones that way and then I can afford to splurge on a case to enjoy them longer).Astronuc said:I had a bottle of Black Swan Shiraz (sorry forgot what year), and it was pretty good. I have a bottle of Amaroo Shiraz 2002, that I've been waiting to try. Sounds like a good time.
Couple, husband and wife, are wholly appropriate for terms of endearment, like darling, sweetheart, dear, honey, . . .Evo said:
It's unprofessional, and in some cases 'intentionally' demeaning.Evo said:
As in the couple in the first example.Evo said:
Definitely.Moonbear said:
That's quite a different story. Anybody should know that such a word is going to bother that person. I think maybe a closer analogy would be the word "nigga". Lots of people use it, black or not now adays, and it's generally considered to be ok, though a white person shouldn't generally start using it with a black person he doesn't know. At any rate I have met plenty of people who don't like either form of the word, and I apologize to anyone I may have offended using it here. Either way a word only has the power you give it and the responsability is still even between the speaker and the listener.Moonbear said:
That's why I tend not to use absolutes when I speak/write. There are always exceptions. What I stated is just my experience.
So you don't care from red and it gives Evo headaches. I certainly hope that there are those in the sisterhood that like red because I will be very sad if I ever am lucky enough to have drinks with you ladies and there is none.Well, there you have it, it must be associated with wine preference.
Pay attention and take notes as to who likes what.TheStatutoryApe said:So you don't care from red and it gives Evo headaches. I certainly hope that there are those in the sisterhood that like red because I will be very sad if I ever am lucky enough to have drinks with you ladies and there is none.
Already started.Astronuc said:Pay attention and take notes as to who likes what.
Lol.. I may be a male but I'm not that dense.And don't start with - "So what would you girls like?"
"I am NOT drinking merlot! If anyone orders f------ merlot, I'M LEAVING!"pattylou said:
Bad-tempered little cross-patch.Moonbear said:
Little too much detailed information, Blondie.Moonbear said:
Tell him to get off his ar-e and get his own damn remote.pattylou said:
Moonbear said:
Those are counterexamples and they make my point: the fact that some words often have different meanigns does not mean that there has to be a problem knowing which meaing is bein used.Moonbear said:
I really don't think that's true. If it were, why do women use it?
But its not patronizing in most contexts! Are you saying you don't refer to your female friends that way?
Moonbear, I really think you are focusing on what is both a different and a rarer context and not acknowledging that it really is a term of endearment in the most common usage. Evo's example is another good one:
I hate to play the pshrink, but I think you had one or two bad experiences that you are projecting onto every other time you hear the term and you aren't listening to what is actually being said.Evo said:
Waaaay, different. Historically, that word was all bad and its only recently that its been used any differently. Frankly, I don't understand why people would refer to themselves that way, but I'd never use the word.
That's what's most confusing to me about this. Like I said, my mom refers to her friends that way and she's one of the ones who was in the secretary pool and was treated badly (she complains about it a lot). So if its not a word that should be used as a term of endearment, she of all people shouldn't be using it. So it doesn't seem to me like she has a problem distinguishing the context.TheStatutoryApe said:
Me too.
Ouch. You're a real teddy-bear, aren't you?Moonbear said:
Astronuc said:Wolram, does this thread answer your question?
Don't generalize!
Everyone is different - and be especially careful with regard to "terms of endearment". Choosing the wrong one could be fatal.
El Hombre Invisible said:
I do not refer to them that way. They are my friends. I don't distinguish between my female friends and my male friends, they are all friends. I have some I refer to as "best" friends, but I have both male and female best friends too. But, unless you are trying to ensure you clarify the appropriate sex for your own preferences for dating, I see no need to specify the gender of my friends at all.russ_watters said:
Try it on the woman you are currently dating and find out. Instead of using whatever other terms of endearment you would normally use, insert "girl" and see how she responds. "Girl, come sit with me." "Where would you like to go for dinner, girl?" "Girl, while you're up, would you bring me a glass of water?"
No, I think the men here aren't listening to us women when we are telling you that you are just so accustomed to using the term, you don't even see why it is offensive to us.
But the problem is that the context is most often NOT clear enough. Note the first two definitions, especially #2. It's the association with inexperience that is the biggest issue.
If you know them well, why don't you send someone to a specific one by name? How much familiarity can you have if you need to refer to them as a collective group in the first place? You're referring to the entire secretarial pool, not one person you have a friendship with. And, how much familiarity does the person have with them whom you are instructing to seek their assistance? It tells me you don't know them well enough to even know their names or to know who might be available to help. If it was all men working as secretaries, could you ever picture yourself saying, "Give it to one of the boys in the office?"
Yep, complete with claws and teeth.
What do you say when you walk into a room with a large group of people in it [pictures the "doctor" scene from "Spies Like US"]? 'Hi, people?' If I walk into a party and say, 'Hey, guys, the beer's here!' should the females assume I'm implying they are manly?Moonbear said:
Well, I've only been out with the girl (
) I'm currently dating 4 times, so its a little early to be using any such term. However, there should be no difference in how one interprets "baby" or "girl" in those contexts (if "girl" is bad, "baby" should be worse, right?). I suspect if I start substituting "girl" for "babe" with my female friends, I may get some funny looks because of the change (if they even notie at all), but it won't be taken as an insult - I'll try it this weekend, though. Regardless, you said you're not a fan of any such term of endearment, so the question of substitution is kinda irrelevant. You don't think that's the least bit unusual, though?
I've acknowledged that it can be offensive in certain contexts - in fact, there is little argument on the point about "the girls in the secretary pool", but you are focusing on professional contexts (where I acknowledge it is inappropriate) and don't seem to want to acknowledge that there in social circumstances it can be perfectly appropriate. Regardless, knowing your sensitivity on the subject, I'd never make the mistake with you.
[shrug] Like I said, I use it all the time and I've never once had it misinterpreted as an insult. I have two very close female friends (teachers) in their upper 20s and I say "goodnight girls" or "hey babe, while you're up could you get me a beer?" all the time.
You're comparing something that you know is meant to be offensive with something you know is meant not to be offensive. But if you honestly meant for it to be a term of endearment, you could call me pretty much whatever you want. I don't have preconceived connotations for things like that.
And a pet peeve of mine is when someone knows a term is offensive to people and continues to use it anyway.russ_watters said:
, but as soon as you're dealing with someone who is not your best friend (I'd extend close relationship to include close friendship, not to be confused with just those you are dating or partnered with), then they are no longer appropriate. And, in an office or professional setting, they really aren't appropriate even with those who are your close friends unless nobody else is around. In that case, it can be bad for two different reasons: 1) it may be perceived as favoritism or that professional decisions are based on your personal relationship rather than your professional relationship, or 2) may set a bad example for others regarding the authority of that person and the degree of respect they should be given in a professional setting. Generally, it's just uncomfortable for those around you. The same would extend to two male colleagues who are friends outside of work. If the big bosses were around, you wouldn't refer to each other by some goofy nicknames you had for each other, you'd stick with your proper names. So, even when it's not offensive to the person you are speaking to or about, it can still be inappropriate. Here's another example that gets at the inappropriateness issue: I like to hug my friends when I greet them (I know, I know, this sounds totally at odds with my dislike for cutesy endearments), and I do consider some of the people I work with to be good friends; however, when I am at work, or when I run into other friends at conferences, we do not hug to greet in that setting. I don't even want to know how people would interpret that. Likewise, I've been known to have intimate relationships with men I've known, and certainly such intimacy is not offensive to either of us, but if someone I'm dating comes to visit me in the office, or if we go out to dinner, we're sure not going to be behaving the same way in front of other people as we do in the privacy of our own homes.But that's exactly my point. Why is it offensive to use the term boy but not girl if you're telling me it is only being used in a non-offensive context as a term of endearment? You've been arguing all along that we should know the intent by the context, so if the context is the same, you should know the intent is the same. So, if the context is the same, how could you be confused about the intent? Why do you think women need to put up with it and just understand that you mean no offense even when it is offensive to use the term "girl" for a grown woman, but on the other hand, you expect women to accommodate men's preferences not to be called a "boy" even if no offense was intended? This is what we call a double-standard.russ_watters said:
Absolutely. I have no problem with you calling me 'boy', just as long as you insert the word 'big' in front of it.Moonbear said:
Can never find the edit button when I really need it. fi said:
The easiest way to "quote" is to hit the green "quote" button in the far bottom right corner of the post that you want to quote. Just delete whatever text you don't want included in your quote.fi said:And lastly, if someone wouldn't mind reminding me how to do the blue quote boxes my responses may be more timely.
Same here. My mum and grandmothers and aunts all like to refer to "the girls". I have avoided mentioning it but there is another term that many women don't like that I have a tendency to use, mostly because of the people I am around. All of the women I have dated use it, my mom and aunts, even the majority of the various women I have been around socially use it, younger and older. This would be the infamous "chick(s)". Maybe it's a Southern California thing, the only women I have ever seen take offense to it have been from else where I believe.russ_watters said:
