What does Rovelli mean with "oriented and ordered graph"?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of "oriented and ordered graphs" as described by Rovelli in his book "Quantum Gravity," specifically in the context of spin networks. Participants explore the implications of ordering and orientation in these graphs, including their definitions and relationships to diffeomorphisms.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that Rovelli mentions a finite discrete group of maps that can change the order or orientation of the graph, prompting questions about the meaning of "order."
  • Another participant suggests that the ordering refers to labeling the links of the graph, which allows for the assignment of colors, and notes that some diffeomorphisms can swap links, thus altering the order.
  • A different viewpoint argues that while links can be colored, it is not necessary for them to be oriented or ordered, referencing Penrose's diagrams as examples of graphs without explicit ordering.
  • One participant points out that Rovelli states changing the order corresponds to swapping variables, while changing orientation involves replacing a variable with its inverse, highlighting a distinction between the two concepts.
  • Another participant proposes that ordering may involve specifying the predecessor and successor for each node in the graph.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing interpretations of what constitutes ordering in the context of Rovelli's discussion, with no consensus reached on a singular definition or understanding of the terms involved.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions about the definitions of orientation and ordering remain unclear, and the discussion includes references to historical concepts like Penrose's diagrams, which may not align directly with Rovelli's framework.

Heidi
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Hi Pfs
Rovelli writes this in his book (Qunatum Gravity) about spin networks:
Given an oriented and ordered graph there is a finite disgrete group of maps that change its order or orientation and that can be obtained as a diffeomorphism.
A link is equipped the source and target functions. this give the orientation.
But what is the order he is talking about.
the paragraph is the 6.4 (Diff invariance)
thanks
 
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You have to label the links first, as ##l_1, l_2, \dots## say, before you can assign a colouring ##j_1 , j_2 , \dots##. It is this labelling of the links that is the ordering, I think. With some graphs there are diffeomorphisms that simply swap the links around and hence change the ordering.
 
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yes we can do like that to color the links but it is not necessary to have oriented ordered links.
The Penrose's diagrams were the ancestors of the spin networks.
they were trivalent with no explicit intertwiners. the links were not oriented and each link was coloured by a number (not a representation)
So we had a numerical function on a graph without necessary ordering:
to each pair of connected node we assign a number.
 
Rovelli writes later that if changing the order correspond to swap the variables, changing the orientation leads to replace a variable by its inverse.
If in an oriented loop the holonomy gives a matrix, changing the orientation gives the inverse matrix.
 
I think, ordering means specifying the predecessor and successor to each node of the graph.
 

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