What is pressure when there are no container walls?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of pressure in gases when there are no container walls. Participants explore the relationship between pressure, particle momentum, and intermolecular collisions, questioning how pressure can exist without a defined surface to measure it against.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that pressure is defined by changes in particle momentum and questions how pressure can exist without walls to facilitate these changes.
  • Another participant proposes that wall-less pressure could be attributed to intermolecular collisions, asserting that pressure cannot exist without such collisions.
  • A different viewpoint questions the necessity of a wall for measuring pressure, suggesting that collisions among particles themselves could serve as a reference surface.
  • One participant emphasizes the calculation of pressure as a function of kinetic energy density, derived from momentum changes, and discusses the implications of particle density and collisions in gases.
  • There is a mention of using statistical mechanics to derive the perfect gas law, indicating a potential resource for deeper understanding.
  • Another participant introduces calculations related to the number of collisions per unit area and time, as well as mean free length, to further explore the concept of pressure without walls.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that there can be no pressure without change of momentum, but there is disagreement on the necessity of walls for measuring pressure. Some argue that pressure can be understood through particle collisions alone, while others maintain that walls provide a clearer framework for calculation.

Contextual Notes

Participants express various assumptions regarding the nature of pressure, including the dependence on particle interactions and the implications of using walls as reference points. The discussion includes unresolved mathematical steps related to calculating pressure and collision rates.

  • #61
A.T. said:
Isn't there a factor of 2, because elastic collisions would reverse the momentum?
You have stuff flowing from one side to the other. That's a factor of one. But you also have stuff flowing from the other side to the one. There's your factor of two.

From the point of view of side A, both flows amount to a momentum transfer in the same direction. You have a loss of material with a toward-the-boundary momentum and a gain of material with a from-the-boundary momentum. Same for side B, of course.
 
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  • #62
jbriggs444 said:
Even without a wall and without collisions, there is a rate at which photons (or better, just "stuff") passes through any surface that you choose to define. The rate at which momentum is transferred through that surface per unit area per unit time amounts to a pressure.

You do not have to have a force or collisions to transfer momentum.
If they just pass through there is no change of momentum so they transfer nothing. You need to have a hard surface or you need to imagine it there is no escape if you wish to apply Newton's Laws. It is another matter if photons get reflected from an imaginary mirror how much momentum they transfer. I think they transfer nothing as they lose no energy. In certain sense photons are unlike classical particle we have long chain of replies on this aspect of photon on Physics Forum
 
  • #63
How did photons get into this discussion?
 
  • #64
Let'sthink said:
If they just pass through there is no change of momentum so they transfer nothing.
If moving material leaves a system, it carries momentum away with it. If moving material enters a system, it carries momentum with it. A transfer of material transfers momentum.
 
  • #65
Chestermiller said:
How did photons get into this discussion?
A photon gas was mentioned at least once as a situation with pressure but without collisions.
 
  • #66
jbriggs444 said:
A photon gas was mentioned at least once as a situation with pressure but without collisions.
This was the OP's original intent?
 
  • #67
Chestermiller said:
This was the OP's original intent?
It seems very much on-point. The original post ponders pressure without a change of particle momentum.
 
  • #68
67 posts, all trying to nail down what is only an idealised behaviour of an idealise model.
Pressure is 'the force per unit area that would be there IF a wall was in position. Just 'this side' of the virtual wall, there would be no way of telling if it were there (by looking at the passing molecules) or not. It's just an abstraction that's useful for deriving gas laws from some simple basic kinetics - that's all. Physics is full of such very basic models and people keep believing they're real life. Some things you just have to suck up and go along with them. If you do that, you have a chance of understanding what it's all about.
 

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