Bathtub Vortex Pressure difference

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the dynamics of a bathtub vortex, specifically examining the relationship between angular momentum, velocity changes, and pressure differences within the fluid. Participants explore the implications of conservation laws and pressure gradients in the context of fluid motion and vortex formation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a scenario involving a particle in a fluid, applying conservation of angular momentum to explain the increase in velocity as the particle moves toward the drain.
  • Another participant notes that the pressure gradient in a vortex must be negative to provide the necessary centripetal force for circular motion, suggesting a relationship between pressure and velocity changes.
  • A participant expresses understanding that the pressure difference is radial and contributes to radial acceleration, questioning the mechanism that causes the pressure gradient to develop initially.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of mass loss to the sink at the center of the vortex, suggesting that this complicates the flow field and may influence the pressure dynamics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the role of angular momentum in explaining velocity changes, but there is uncertainty regarding the mechanisms that lead to the development of pressure gradients and the overall dynamics of the vortex. Multiple competing views on these mechanisms remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion involves assumptions about fluid behavior, potential flow, and the effects of mass loss, which may not be fully explored or defined by all participants.

Timtam
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The problem statement
upload_2016-10-17_11-10-24.png
Example 1 A single particle
I have a particle being forced by a radial centripetal force onto a smaller radius

$$l_1=m_c.v_1.r_1$$
$$L_1=L_2$$
$$L_2=m_c.v_2.r_2$$
$$m_c.v_1.r_1=m_c.v_2.r_2$$
$$v_1.r_1=v_2.r_2$$
$$v_2=v_1\frac{r_2}{r_1}$$

Its increase from ##v_1## to ##v_2## is explained by Conservation of Angular Momentum
Example 2 The bathtub vortex-A particle in a fluid

I have the same particle entering a control volume- with the same angular momentum ##L_1=m_c.v_1.r_1## as its drawn towards the drain its angular velocity increases as radius decreases ##v=\frac{1}{r}##

$$v_1=\frac{1}{r_1}$$
$$v_1.r_1=1$$
$$v_2=\frac{1}{r_2}$$
$$v_2.r_2=1$$
$$v_2.r_2=v_1.r_1$$
$$v_2=v_1\frac{r_2}{r_1}$$
So in both examples the increase in velocity is explained just by Conservation of Angular momentum

Yet applying Bernoulli's and Energy conservation the increase in velocity is explained by a proportional decrease in pressure ...and we do see a pressure decrease in a vortex . (This pressure gradient ,once created is also explained to be the radial force)

My question
If the increase in Angular velocity is explained just by Conservation of Momentum - Why does the pressure decrease?

Shouldn't such a velocity change, due to a pressure change, be in addition of the radius change and the pressure change ?

Where does that decrease in potential energy go if not into an additional increase in velocity (kinetic energy) over the one expected by Angular Momentum Conservation ?
 
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These ideas are two sides of the same coin. At any rate, the pressure gradient pointing toward the center of the vortex must be negative because the resultant force must serve as the centripetal force that holds a particle (or fluid parcel, if you will) into its circular "orbit" around the center. If a particle takes a trajectory that causes it to move with or against that gradient, then it will speed up or slow down accordingly.
 
Ah thanks @boneh3ad ! Ok I think I understand it , the pressure difference is purely radial so contributes only a radial acceleration , in the stream wise direction there is no pressure gradient so no acceleration (increase in velocity) in the stream wise direction. Is this correct

I am still a little unsure of what mechanism causes it to develop in the first place ??
 
That's the general idea for a generic vortex. For a bathtub vortex, you've also got the effect of having mass being lost to the "sink' in the center. If you think about it in terms of potential flow, for example, you would have a superposed point vortex and point sink in order to model that flow. Then the flow field is a little bit more complicated but still fairly simple in the grand scheme of things.
 

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