What is the Effect of a Lorentz Force on a Pendulum's Gyroscopic Stabilization?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the effects of a Lorentz force on the stability of a pendulum's equilibrium, particularly focusing on the conditions under which the North Pole of a spherical pendulum becomes stable. The conversation touches on theoretical implications, intuitive understandings, and potential mathematical proofs related to this phenomenon.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants describe a pendulum system with a massless rod and a point mass, discussing the stability of the North Pole equilibrium under the influence of a Lorentz force.
  • One participant proposes a theorem indicating that if the magnetic field strength is sufficiently large, the North Pole equilibrium can become stable.
  • Another participant suggests that the Lorentz force stabilizes the pendulum by forcing the mass to move in small circles when it attempts to fall from the North Pole.
  • Concerns are raised about the nature of stability, with one participant noting that the equilibrium is not fully stable in the classical sense, as displacing the pendulum leads to rotational motion rather than a return to the center.
  • Discussion includes the impact of adding a damping term, with some participants arguing that it would destabilize the equilibrium, while others express surprise at this assertion.
  • One participant draws an analogy between the stability of the pendulum and the stability of Lagrange points, suggesting similarities in the forces at play.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement and disagreement regarding the nature of stability in the system. While some agree on the effects of the Lorentz force, there is contention about the implications of damping and the definition of stability in this context.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific conditions and parameters (e.g., mass, radius, magnetic field strength) but do not resolve the implications of these on the overall stability of the system. The discussion remains open-ended regarding the proof and detailed mathematical analysis.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying dynamics, stability theory, or the effects of electromagnetic forces on mechanical systems.

wrobel
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This is not a very famous effect but it is really amazing. Consider a pendulum which consists of a massless rod of length ##r## and a point of mass ##m##; the system is in the standard gravitational field ##\boldsymbol g##. So the point ##m## moves on the sphere of radius ##r##.
It is clear, the equilibrium when the point rests in the North Pole of the sphere is unstable.

Introduce a Cartesian inertial frame ##OXYZ## with origin in the point of suspension and the axis ##OZ## is vertical such that ##\boldsymbol g=-g\boldsymbol e_z##.
Now let us switch on a Lorentz force ##\boldsymbol F=\boldsymbol B\times\boldsymbol v## which acts on ##m##. The vector ##\boldsymbol B=B\boldsymbol e_z## is constant.

Theorem. Assume that ##B## is sufficiently big:
##\frac{B^2}{8m}>\frac{mg}{2r}##
then the North Pole equilibrium is stable.
 
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Is this a homework problem?
 
wrobel said:
This is not a very famous effect but it is really amazing.
Intuitively, when B is very strong it will force m on tiny circles anytime it tries to fall from the the North Pole.
 
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Oh, didn't notice the username.

Yes, magnetic fields tend to stabilize charged things, that should not be surprising.
 
A.T. said:
Intuitively, when B is very strong it will force m on tiny circles anytime it tries to fall from the the North Pole.
Yes, something like that is going on. But a pretty thing is: the Lorentz force does not do the work but it turns unstable equilibrium into the stable one :)

mfb said:
es, magnetic fields tend to stabilize charged things, that should not be surprising.
so it makes wonder only me
 
It is not a fully stable point in the classical sense: if you displace the pendulum a bit, it won't come back to the center, it will rotate around it in a sequence of small "u"-patterns.

If you add a damping term, no matter how small, the stable point should become unstable.
 
That surprises me with the damping. Gravity and the magnetic field do not change the total energy, while damping can only reduce it. And the north pole is the state of maximal energy. I would expect some downwards spiral if the initial position is slightly off.

m=1g, r=1m, B=1T leads to 8.8 mC charge (B should be Bq I guess). Hmm, not practical on a large scale.
 
O, I am sorry, I deleted my last post containing error.
mfb said:
If you add a damping term, no matter how small, the stable point should become unstable.
this is true

mfb said:
It is not a fully stable point in the classical sense: if you displace the pendulum a bit, it won't come back to the center, it will
in accordance with definition it is not obliged to come back https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability_theory
 
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mfb said:
It is not a fully stable point in the classical sense
Seems similar to the stability of Lagrange points, which aren't minima of the graviational+centrifugal potential, but stuff stays there due to the Coriolis force, which is analogous to Lorentz force here.
 
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