What is the energy required to approach near absolute zero?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the energy required to approach absolute zero, exploring whether this energy requirement is linear or approaches infinity as one nears 0 Kelvin. Participants consider the nature of energy expenditure in refrigeration and cooling methods, including thermodynamic principles and alternative techniques like laser cooling.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the energy required to approach absolute zero is linear or if it becomes non-linear, potentially approaching infinity as temperatures decrease.
  • One participant suggests that refrigeration methods are linear when increasing ambient temperature but non-linear when reducing target temperature, referencing thermodynamic principles.
  • A suggestion is made to analyze the work required for a refrigerator operating under an ideal Carnot cycle, indicating that the work becomes infinite as the cold reservoir temperature approaches absolute zero.
  • Another participant emphasizes the importance of formulating a coherent question for clarity in discussions, while acknowledging that not everyone may have the knowledge to do so.
  • There is a recognition that the original poster (OP) has significant experience in the forum, suggesting a level of understanding that may not require basic explanations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of energy requirements as one approaches absolute zero, with some proposing linearity and others suggesting non-linear behavior. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact relationship between temperature and energy expenditure.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference thermodynamic concepts and specific cooling methods, but there are limitations in the clarity of definitions and assumptions regarding energy and effort. The discussion also reflects varying levels of familiarity with the topic among participants.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to individuals exploring thermodynamics, refrigeration techniques, and the physics of low-temperature systems.

shintashi
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TL;DR
is the scale linear or exponential?
I'm trying to understand if the amount of effort/energy required to get to absolute zero approaches infinity, or if its a linear thing... is there a point in which dropping near 0 kelvin changes from a 1:1 to an exponential curve? Is the whole thing a curve or is there a static point, like 1 degree kelvin is 1 joule different from 2 kelvin, but for whatever reason, 0.5 kelvin takes like a power plant?

I couldn't find anything explaining the curve, unlike approaching the speed of light, which is pretty straight forward and easy to find.
 
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What is effort/energy.?? A coherent answer requires a specific and well thought out question. You should quote sources for your suppositions and be specific. Asking a good question is half the battle for understanding. Its your half.
 
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hutchphd said:
A coherent answer requires a specific and well thought out question.
That's right, in principle but many people do not know enough for a well (enough for you) though out question. I know that's unsatisfying for the cognoscenti but one of PF's missions is to help people to access their 'unknown unknowns'. I feel that I understand what the OP is getting at (and I believe you actually do have a clue). The OP needs a bit of help across the line, I think.

@shintashi Most refrigeration is achieved in the region of 300K and your average refrigerating machine can manage one particular temperature difference, wherever it starts. I found this elderly article which is interesting and is based on thermodynamic ideas It points out that the energy needed is linear as you increase the ambient temperature but non-linear as you reduce the target temperature. You can do better than that by using other (non thermodynamic) methods like laser cooling this
Scientific American article is interesting. Read them both; they are good fun.
 
Why don't you try and figure out how much work you need to do for a refrigerator undergoing an ideal Carnot cycle? You can write some equations,$$\frac{Q_C}{T_C} = \frac{Q_H}{T_H}$$Use that ##W + Q_C = Q_H##, and try and eliminate ##Q_H## to determine what ##W## corresponds to remove an amount ##Q_C## of heat from the cold reservoir, in terms of ##T_C## (and ##T_H##). You will find that as you approach ##T_C \rightarrow 0\text{K}## this will become infinite.
 
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sophiecentaur said:
That's right, in principle but many people do not know enough for a well (enough for you) though out question

The OP has been here for 17 years. I'd like to think that's enough.
 
Vanadium 50 said:
The OP has been here for 17 years. I'd like to think that's enough.
Funny thing is that I understood his problem. But I guess I hope/ expect people to make allowances for my dumbness and it works both ways. Not to say that I’m never grumpy.
 

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