What is the equation for gravitational and electrical potential energy?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around deriving the equations for gravitational potential energy (GPE) and electrical potential energy (EPE). Participants explore the mathematical formulations and integrals involved in these derivations, examining the conditions under which certain approximations apply.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes using the work-energy principle, stating that potential energy can be derived from the work done against a force, represented by the integral W = ∫ F dr.
  • For gravitational potential energy, the force is given by F = G(mM/r²), leading to an integral that some participants suggest may have limits that need clarification.
  • Another participant questions the definition of the variable h, suggesting it should represent the distance from a to b, and points out that the integral limits may have been incorrectly applied.
  • Some participants discuss the assumption that gravitational force is constant over small distances, noting that the formula Ep = mgh is valid only under certain conditions (h << R).
  • In the electrical potential energy case, a similar approach is taken with the force F = e²/(kr²), leading to a comparable integral structure.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the correctness of their derivations and seeks validation from others, indicating a desire for peer review of their mathematical approach.
  • Another participant provides a Taylor series expansion to approximate the gravitational potential energy formula, suggesting it is an approximation rather than an exact representation.
  • There is a recognition that both gravitational and electrical potential energy equations differ primarily in constants and the conditions under which they are applied.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the correctness of the integral limits and the assumptions made regarding the variables involved. There is no consensus on the exact formulations, and multiple interpretations of the equations and their conditions remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations regarding the assumptions made about the distance h in relation to R, and the implications of using different limits in the integrals. The discussion highlights the need for careful consideration of these variables in deriving potential energy equations.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and professionals in physics and engineering who are exploring the concepts of potential energy and the mathematical derivations associated with gravitational and electrical forces.

  • #31
rogerk8 said:
Ep is arbitrary chosen, right?

It is not fixed like Ek, right?

It is based on a reference point.
Umm, KE is also not fixed. It is based on a reference frame. I am sitting on my chair, so in the Earth's reference frame my KE is 0, but in the Sun's reference frame I am moving so I have a substantial KE.

Energy is conserved regardless of which reference frame you use for KE and what reference point you use for PE, but different reference frames will give different values for KE and different reference points will give different values for PE.

rogerk8 said:
But if Ep=0 at infinity, Ep might as well be negative, right?
Yes, if you choose the common convention of setting gravitational PE to 0 at infinity then at all finite distances the PE is negative. There is nothing wrong with that.
rogerk8 said:
The interesting thing here is that if we compare FGPE with EPE the major difference is the sign.

Both has the exact same structure but differs in the sign.
I haven't been following your electrical PE stuff. Just like there are two masses in the gravitational equation there should also be two charges in the electrical one. If they have the same sign then the overall expression (using PE = 0 at infinity) is positive, indicating that it is repulsive. If they have opposite signs then the expression is negative, indicating that it is attractive. So the sign is folded into the charge. When the force is attractive, like gravity, you automatically get a negative sign for the PE, like gravity.
 
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  • #32
'And if we set

GM/R=g'

You can see this setting is incorrect; the units do not balance. Consequently, your result for W also doesn't give the right equation.
In the limits of integration, if you put (R+a) and (R+h) in place of a and h, you get:
W= mgR2 [(R+a)-1 - (R+h)-1]
Neglecting R(a+h) and (ah) in comparison with R2, we get:
W= mg(h - a).

I hope this would be helpful.
P. Radhakrishnamurty
 

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