What is the true value of a science degree in today's society?

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The discussion centers on the perceived value of liberal arts degrees compared to science degrees in today's society. Critics argue that subjects like English Literature and Religion offer little societal advancement, while proponents emphasize the importance of a well-rounded education that includes liberal arts for critical thinking and creativity. The conversation highlights the tension between practicality in job markets and the intrinsic value of diverse knowledge. Participants also note that despite economic challenges, the market still supports the study of liberal arts. Ultimately, the debate reflects differing views on the relevance and utility of various academic disciplines.
flyingpig
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I am serious, what good has liberal arts has done to society? Politics? Yeah right, it may have taken Kepler twenty years, but his three laws are better than every law the Congress has made.

You think humanity needs something like Modern Art?

I mean just look at this

modern_art_paintings_21st.-.-merello.-_pietro_di_milano.jpg


That is suppose to be art? Give me a break.

And what about useless subjects like English Literature? So if you know a few more words than the rest of the population, it's useless, it really doesn't provide advancement to society. Then there is worst subject of all, in fact I didn't know it was a possible college major until I looked it up, Religion. Religion is the enemy of Science.

I have gone off topic, but correct me if I am wrong. I probably am...
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Ignorance is your enemy.
 
I think you're taking it a bit too far. While Liberal Arts may be unnecessary at times, what good is a person who isn't knowledgeable about anything other than his own field?
 
If liberal arts really were useless, no one would study it...the market seems to say otherwise.

Although I will say, in a down economy, it's tough to sell those skills. But the economy won't always be in the ditch (I hope :smile:).
 
Who gets to judge which data is useful and worth expanding time/money in to, and which is not?

How would you know which data is useful and worth expanding in to, if you have not done so?

Who gets to tell someone who likes arts and politics that they can't practice it? Is there a good reason for denying people these things that they enjoy?

Religion is the enemy of Science.

Sounds like you've decided that 'not your way' is the 'wrong way'. Isn't that a stereotypical religious thing to do?
 
lisab said:
If liberal arts really were useless, no one would study it...the market seems to say otherwise.

Although I will say, in a down economy, it's tough to sell those skills. But the economy won't always be in the ditch (I hope :smile:).

No people study it because there is nothing else better to do. They just don't see the beauty of Science.

I honestly wonder what english professors do on their own time, I am pretty sure they don't "research", I mean they could probably research about meaningless stuff like "when was this word coined in the English language?"
 
I do have to agree with you though that it annoys the crap out of me when people make stuff like the one you posted and pass it off as art, and people respectfully accept it as such.
 
ahsanxr said:
I do have to agree with you though that it annoys the crap out of me when people make stuff like the one you posted and pass it off as art, and people respectfully accept it as such.

It's not just that, I think it's just consumes too much from the environment
 
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  • #10
ahsanxr said:
Expand.

Are you asking for nonsense expansion .. :wink:
 
  • #11
rootX said:
Are you asking for nonsense expansion .. :wink:

I would just like to know whether the OP has any good points to make.
 
  • #12
flyingpig said:
I am serious, what good has liberal arts has done to society? Politics? Yeah right, it may have taken Kepler twenty years, but his three laws are better than every law the Congress has made.

You think humanity needs something like Modern Art?

I mean just look at this

modern_art_paintings_21st.-.-merello.-_pietro_di_milano.jpg


That is suppose to be art? Give me a break.

And what about useless subjects like English Literature? So if you know a few more words than the rest of the population, it's useless, it really doesn't provide advancement to society. Then there is worst subject of all, in fact I didn't know it was a possible college major until I looked it up, Religion. Religion is the enemy of Science.

I have gone off topic, but correct me if I am wrong. I probably am...

In other words, you are not doing well in your liberal arts classes. :-p
 
  • #13
ahsanxr said:
Expand.

No thanks, I'm trying to lose weight.
 
  • #14
But that doesn't mean I am wrong right? We have too many useless subjects like Music Therapy, Art History, and even Dancing
 
  • #15
Math Is Hard said:
In other words, you are not doing well in your liberal arts classes. :-p

Yeah, this is about the time when midterm grades are posted in most North American universities. :biggrin:
 
  • #16
Do you listen to music?
Do you watch movies?
Do you pay attention to the news?

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRqJ5Ll749AtDjZJxd34UURQJ-g4Mmcnyio_QnzuAwLiWJDF9_S9A&t=1.jpg
 
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  • #17
flyingpig said:
No people study it because there is nothing else better to do. They just don't see the beauty of Science.

I enjoy them both... how unfortunate that you're so limited.

flyingpig said:
I honestly wonder what english professors do on their own time, I am pretty sure they don't "research", I mean they could probably research about meaningless stuff like "when was this word coined in the English language?"

I would imagine that given the level of knowledge you've displayed regarding what the liberal arts ARE, you have nothing to contribute here. You've set a false dillema as though you can't be a fan of both, which is really an expression of your own rigidity.

I'd feel for you, but I just can't seem to care.
 
  • #18
lisab said:
If liberal arts really were useless, no one would study it...the market seems to say otherwise.
Lol, that's ridiculous. Popularity has nothing at all to do with usefulness.
 
  • #19
I would imagine that given the level of knowledge you've displayed regarding what the liberal arts ARE, you have nothing to contribute here. You've set a false dillema as though you can't be a fan of both, which is really an expression of your own rigidity.

I'd feel for you, but I just can't seem to care.

Perhaps I should use the word "Humanities subjects"
 
  • #20
flyingpig said:
Perhaps I should use the word "Humanities subjects"

Hmmm... I'm definitely more in line with you now... not entirely, but yeah, much more so.

@Russ: True... true...
 
  • #22
Oooooh... looking at that... I'm sooooo glad that I didn't major in English, but Telecom?! Yech.


edit: I actually... kind of agree with that income distribution. I'm not a fan of social workers as a rule (see a doctor), and the rest... meh.

The only one that sems out of place is hospitality, if that includes management.
 
  • #23
russ_watters said:
Unemployment rate by major: http://www.studentsreview.com/unemployment_by_major.php3
[ehh...based on small surveys]
Lowest paying college majors: http://www.walletpop.com/2010/05/13/10-lowest-paying-college-majors/

That first link has to be screwed up majorly. Kineseology graduates do NOT have a 0% unemployment rate :)
 
  • #24
Pengwuino said:
That first link has to be screwed up majorly. Kineseology graduates do NOT have a 0% unemployment rate :)

Lmao read this http://www.studentsreview.com/docs/major_phys.shtml

What are the fellow students like (personalitywise) in it?
Generally fall into two categories:

1.) Very quiet, generally pale and undernourished. Often mistaken for

computer science majors due to the lack of sunlight exposure. Examples: Hawking (pre-ALS), Sagan.


2.) Very outgoing and charming, oozing intelligence and friendliness, with a child-like curiosity hovering around them. Examples: Feynman, Einstein.

Common Misconceptions

That it's a “guy's” subject, that all Physicists are nerds, that Physicists aren't interested in anything but physics. All are patently untrue for *all* physicists I know, including myself.
 
  • #25
haha the communications major one is hilarious. The misconception is that they don't work. Every communications major I know says the major is a JOKE. That's why football players are mainly communications majors.
 
  • #26
Pengwuino said:
haha the communications major one is hilarious. The misconception is that they don't work. Every communications major I know says the major is a JOKE. That's why football players are mainly communications majors.

What is exactly is a communication major...?
 
  • #27
flyingpig said:
What is exactly is a communication major...?

I was about to ask the same thing!...

...I think it has to do with being a PR flak.
 
  • #28
What's a flak?
 
  • #29
flyingpig said:
What's a flak?

It's slang for shill, or someone who acts as a representative of another; it implies a measure of dishonesty. I'm not sure if that came first, or if AA flak was first... they both are banking on the idea of a blast to distract and damage.

Princetone Wordnet said:
•flak catcher: a slick spokesperson who can turn any criticism to the advantage of their employer
•fire: intense adverse criticism; "Clinton directed his fire at the Republican Party"; "the government has come under attack"; "don't give me any flak"
•antiaircraft: artillery designed to shoot upward at airplanes
 
  • #30
Pengwuino said:
That first link has to be screwed up majorly. Kineseology graduates do NOT have a 0% unemployment rate :)
Small sample sizes.
 
  • #31
I note that the low sample size groups are noted... and highlighted red. It's not perfect, but it's honest.
 
  • #32
off topic, so physics is http://www.walletpop.com/2010/05/10/the-10-most-profitable-college-majors/" That's for people who go to non-academic route after their BS degree I suppose? :(
Starting salary doesn't seem right. Why am I in grad school?
 
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  • #33
russ_watters said:
Small sample sizes.

They both work at the same shoe store.
 
  • #34
I wouldn't call liberal arts subjects useless, but they are far less useful than other subjects.

My adage:
English and social studies if you want to talk about big problems.
Math and science if you want to solve them.
 
  • #35
renz said:
off topic, so physics is http://www.walletpop.com/2010/05/10/the-10-most-profitable-college-majors/" That's for people who go to non-academic route after their BS degree I suppose? :(
Starting salary doesn't seem right. Why am I in grad school?

Probably because you want to do some good... you'll have a chance to cash in later.

@jduster: Hmmm... considering how far apart we seem to be politically, I must say I like that adage.

I'd add: find a liaison so the two connect, and inform each other.
 
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  • #36
I must be a freak. I started out in Chemical Engineering, switched to Liberal Arts and double-majored in English Literature and Philosophy, then spent much of my working life in technology as a chemist, paper-maker, and technical consultant to pulp and paper mills. Liberal Arts didn't sink my career - I turned down a 5-year pulp and paper scholarship so I could switch colleges and ended up working for about 20 years in that field anyway. The financial aid director at U of M kept me in his office about all the afternoon telling me how I was throwing my future away by switching from engineering to liberal arts. Finally, I told him to call my parents and talk to them if he wanted (he threatened that), and left. He knew my family was poor, and he knew that I was working my way through school and had no loans and only a few paltry local scholarships. Still, I found out with the help of my Honors advisor that I really had to get into Liberal Arts and pursue the courses that interested me.
 
  • #37
turbo-1 said:
I must be a freak. I started out in Chemical Engineering, switched to Liberal Arts and double-majored in English Literature and Philosophy, then spent much of my working life in technology as a chemist, paper-maker, and technical consultant to pulp and paper mills. Liberal Arts didn't sink my career - I turned down a 5-year pulp and paper scholarship so I could switch colleges and ended up working for about 20 years in that field anyway. The financial aid director at U of M kept me in his office about all the afternoon telling me how I was throwing my future away by switching from engineering to liberal arts. Finally, I told him to call my parents and talk to them if he wanted (he threatened that), and left. He knew my family was poor, and he knew that I was working my way through school and had no loans and only a few paltry local scholarships. Still, I found out with the help of my Honors advisor that I really had to get into Liberal Arts and pursue the courses that interested me.

Yep, you're a freak, but a good freak. :biggrin:
 
  • #38
nismaratwork said:
Yep, you're a freak, but a good freak. :biggrin:
Thanks. I have always done things backassward, as my aunt used to say, but things seemed to turn out OK anyway.
 
  • #39
turbo-1 said:
Thanks. I have always done things backassward, as my aunt used to say, but things seemed to turn out OK anyway.

:approve: Well there you go, good upbringing, smarts, and education... from there you can do anything.
 
  • #40
Dembadon said:
Do you listen to music?
Do you watch movies?
Do you pay attention to the news?

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRqJ5Ll749AtDjZJxd34UURQJ-g4Mmcnyio_QnzuAwLiWJDF9_S9A&t=1.jpg

Do you listen to music? Yes
Do you watch movies? No
Do you pay attention to the news? No, well if it is big enough it will get my attention
 
  • #41
jduster said:
I wouldn't call liberal arts subjects useless, but they are far less useful than other subjects.

My adage:
English and social studies if you want to talk about big problems.
Math and science if you want to solve them.

It appears you're not at all familiar with the course of study in a contemporary liberal arts program:

The contemporary liberal arts comprise studying literature, languages, philosophy, history, mathematics, and science, the latter of which includes physical, biological, and social sciences. - http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/339020/liberal-arts".

Majoring in mathematics would be considered a narrow-spectrum program, whereas majoring in liberal arts would be considered a broad-spectrum program.

This is not to be confused with majoring in, art, for example, which again is a narrow-spectrucm program.
 
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  • #42
I agree, programs for liberal arts are worthless. But this liberal arts themselves are not.

Looking at great novels, only a small fraction were written by those who "studied" literary composition. And the same goes for art.

And when did a broad-spectrum education help anything? The overwhelming sentiment of my professors is that "once you get in the boat, you stay in the boat", that is, the only way to achieve something is to devote yourself to your single field. The jack of all trades is an antiquated notion, our society of present requires razor-thin specialization.
 
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  • #43
I always laugh when I see 'toffs' on TV, studying Classical Literature at Oxford / Cambridge (I think that was the course, something to do with old books anyhow).

These people get accepted to study this crap when there are others out there who would really benefit from what those universities offer in other courses (physics, maths etc).

* Toff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toff
 
  • #44
I don't get this hate-on for the liberal arts or this notion that the (physical?--there's another can of worms...) sciences are extremely useful. Aside from trying to pigeon hole subjects into this dichotomy (how about mathematics, which is in the arts at some places, and science in others?) you're then trying to ascribe value (aesthetic and monetary) to the knowledge of the two.

Is being able to solve a partial differential equation any more or less valuable of a skill than being able to go in-depth into the socioeconomic and political causes, outcome, and contributing factors of World War I? Does the undergrad modern physics course (which briefly skims 50 to 80 year old work) any more or less valid than a modern media course?[*]

Knowledge is knowledge, beauty is beauty, and art is in the eye of the beholder. Sometimes, all three of those things overlap. Why cut off your nose to spite your face, especially since you're no longer in high school and don't have to shoehorn yourself and play identity-clique?

Higher education isn't usually about vocational training (with some exceptions, for instance, nursing / medicine, pharmacy, accounting, etc.) Even most engineers use just a tiny fraction of the direct material they learned in school (assuming they're not in sales, management or project planning--then it's probably even less, assuming you don't have an MBA or planning certificates or the likes). It's about being able to think, having some background and breadth of knowledge, and yes, being able to do intellectual and creative work (what I believe to be more intrinsic and less trainable qualities).

We constantly get threads over there in the Employment subforum about what careers physicists should go into. That's for the folks who get their physics undergrads, go to grad school, post-doc, and then can't find an academic / research position! And almost always, someone mentions finance or Wall Street! Okay, so that may be a bit of an over-generalization, but think how many jobs there are that directly use an undergrad physicists' know-how.

There's a joke that goes, "What did the fine arts major say to the engineer? 'Would you like fries with that?'" You're no more relegated to fast food / dead-end jobs than the next person--it's what you make of your life, experiences, and education. And in this down economy, there are probably folks with engineering degrees and responsibilities asking the arts grad whether or not they'd like fries and all the fix-ems. If you look at upper management, I'd be willing to make a small wager that there are more folks there with undergraduate degrees in the arts than in the sciences or engineering (although they all usually have some sort of degree).

So, given all the above, is going to college a waste except for those aforementioned fields? No, because it means that you should be a cut above the average person (who doesn't have a college degree) and that you should be able to take on more complicated tasks. That's not to say that you will, or that you're better / smarter than the guy without the degree (clearly, this isn't going to hold true), but that on the whole, you should be. And, if my (Canadian) university's numbers are correct, lifetime earnings potential will reflect this.

There are easy majors and sleeper courses abound. Smart and bright people go into all fields, not-so smart nor bright people end up in all fields. In the end, your knowledge, experiences, and education are as useless as you want them to be. Or not.

EDIT: [*] While I can still go into the history of World War I (not as well as I probably used to be able to), I haven't touched a PDE in nearly a decade. Maybe that means I should have been a history major, instead...
 
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  • #45
MATLABdude said:
I don't get this hate-on for the liberal arts or this notion that the (physical?--there's another can of worms...) sciences are extremely useful. Aside from trying to pigeon hole subjects into this dichotomy (how about mathematics, which is in the arts at some places, and science in others?) you're then trying to ascribe value (aesthetic and monetary) to the knowledge of the two.

Is being able to solve a partial differential equation any more or less valuable of a skill than being able to go in-depth into the socioeconomic and political causes, outcome, and contributing factors of World War I? Does the undergrad modern physics course (which briefly skims 50 to 80 year old work) and more or less valid than a modern media course?[*]

Knowledge is knowledge, beauty is beauty, and art is in the eye of the beholder. Sometimes, all three of those things overlap. Why cut off your nose to spite your face, especially since you're no longer in high school and don't have to shoehorn yourself and play identity-clique?

Higher education isn't usually about vocational training (with some exceptions, for instance, nursing / medicine, pharmacy, accounting, etc.) Even most engineers use just a tiny fraction of the direct material they learned in school (assuming they're not in sales, management or project planning--then it's probably even less, assuming you don't have an MBA or planning certificates or the likes). It's about being able to think, having some background and breadth of knowledge, and yes, being able to do intellectual and creative work (what I believe to be more intrinsic and less trainable qualities).

We constantly get threads over there in the Employment subforum about what careers physicists should go into. That's for the folks who get their physics undergrads, go to grad school, post-doc, and then can't find an academic / research position! And almost always, someone mentions finance or Wall Street! Okay, so that may be a bit of an over-generalization, but think how many jobs there are that directly use an undergrad physicists' know-how.

There's a joke that goes, "What did the fine arts major say to the engineer? 'Would you like fries with that?'" You're no more relegated to fast food / dead-end jobs than the next person--it's what you make of your life, experiences, and education. And in this down economy, there are probably folks with engineering degrees and responsibilities asking the arts grad whether or not they'd like fries and all the fix-ems. If you look at upper management, I'd be willing to make a small wager that there are more folks there with undergraduate degrees in the arts than in the sciences or engineering (although they all usually have some sort of degree).

So, given all the above, is going to college a waste except for those aforementioned fields? No, because it means that you should be a cut above the average person (who doesn't have a college degree) and that you should be able to take on more complicated tasks. That's not to say that you will, or that you're better / smarter than the guy without the degree (clearly, this isn't going to hold true), but that on the whole, you should be. And, if my (Canadian) university's numbers are correct, lifetime earnings potential will reflect this.

There are easy majors and sleeper courses abound. Smart and bright people go into all fields, not-so smart nor bright people end up in all fields. In the end, your knowledge, experiences, and education are as useless as you want them to be. Or not.

EDIT: [*] While I can still go into the history of World War I (not as well as I probably used to be able to), I haven't touched a PDE in nearly a decade. Maybe that means I should have been a history major, instead...

Well said, and bravo.
 
  • #46
PhDorBust said:
Looking at great novels, only a small fraction were written by those who "studied" literary composition. And the same goes for art.

Do you have any facts to support this? And what about the rest of literature, not just "novels"?

Up until about 100 or 150 years ago education was only for a select few who could afford it, and the level of liberal education in schools was much higher than it is today, never mind the level in universities. Thus in Shakespeare's time a man with only a school education could get a high office in government (one of the top jobs in those days), and was well versed in English and Classical literature, and probably French and Italian too. This is a kind of education that we do not have today. So although some writers may not have studied literature at university, they most definitely had a very sound education in the liberal arts from school. They would have anyway continued to study literature well past their school days, because it was considered an embarassment for an educated man not to be well familiar with the best of European literature. Nevertheless, all of the greats in literature studied literature, although perhaps not at university.
 
  • #47
jarednjames said:
I always laugh when I see 'toffs' on TV, studying Classical Literature at Oxford / Cambridge

Me too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T70-HTlKRXo

Now, that’s some useless art that really liberate me! :biggrin:
 
  • #48
I can't believe so many people in this thread are against the arts. I'm currently a Physics/English double major. For me I get a different kind of enjoyment out of each. I can appreciate the beauty of nature but at the same time it's interesting to look at other areas.

My physics advisor once told me that with physics we can understand the nature of sound and how we interpret it physiologically but physics can't tell you how to produce Mozart.

For me the arts are interesting because there is a human aspect to it. I find it interesting to study how we as humans interact with each other and our surroundings.
 
  • #49


Watch it all.
 
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  • #50
I agree. Studying any of the liberal arts in college in my opinion is a waste of time and resources. The world has a lot of serious problems, and learning about finger paintings and dancing isn't going to help solve them.

I think liberal arts has its place in society, as I do enjoy the occasional TV show and movie now and then, but you don't need a college degree to write a movie script or act. When you get down to the brass tacks of it all, the liberal arts is really just about entertainment and not anything salient.
 
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