What percentage of Americans believe in ghosts?

[zoobyshoe]

I grew up leaning toward belief in something paranormal causing these strange experiences people have. Later, I started finding out about the variety of things that can cause hallucinations, even in otherwise functional people. Add to that the phenomenon of hypnosis (especially self-suggestion) and I don't see any reason to hold on to the possibility there might be anything to "ghosts" outside neurological and psychological phenomena.

 

[Chi Meson]

How do two different people see it, and describe it, without prompting? I thought I imagined my experience, until it was validated (for me) by someone I trust.

I can't explain it, because I have no idea what the details are.

I used to think there were ghosts too.

Some people will never experience it, so to them it doesn't exist, what ever "it" might be. I can't blame those that haven't experienced it to disbelieve it. We will just consider ourselves "special".

Yeah. "Special."

 

[zoobyshoe]

How do two different people see it, and describe it, without prompting? I thought I imagined my experience, until it was validated (for me) by someone I trust.

There is a third possibility, which is that you and your wife were "primed" for something like this, at a previous time, without either of you being aware it was happening. Hypnagogue recently brought up the concept of "alert hypnosis" in another forum: a situation where suggestions are planted in people's minds while they are in perfectly normal consciouness. British hypnotist Derren Brown does this to people on a regular basis while being filmed doing it and the results are remarkable:

http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/M/mindcontrol/video/

His skill lies in part in a thorough knowledge of how to suggest, rather than directly state, and in recognizing when a person is sufficiently preoccupied that the suggestion will take hold without their conscious knowledge.

I don't think people like Derren Brown go around randomly planting such suggestions in unsuspecting people. I think most such suggestions get planted inadvertently. If you watch the Derren Brown clips and read his explanations of how he does it you'll be able to piece together how this could happen, and see that people like Derren Brown learned it was possible to do such things by observing them happen inadvertently in the first place.

 

[Artman]

There is a third possibility, which is that you and your wife were "primed" for something like this, at a previous time, without either of you being aware it was happening. Hypnagogue recently brought up the concept of "alert hypnosis" in another forum: a situation where suggestions are planted in people's minds while they are in perfectly normal consciouness. British hypnotist Derren Brown does this to people on a regular basis while being filmed doing it and the results are remarkable:

http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/M/mindcontrol/video/

His skill lies in part in a thorough knowledge of how to suggest, rather than directly state, and in recognizing when a person is sufficiently preoccupied that the suggestion will take hold without their conscious knowledge.

I don't think people like Derren Brown go around randomly planting such suggestions in unsuspecting people. I think most such suggestions get planted inadvertently. If you watch the Derren Brown clips and read his explanations of how he does it you'll be able to piece together how this could happen, and see that people like Derren Brown learned it was possible to do such things by observing them happen inadvertently in the first place.

I'm open minded to a good explanation, but it doesn't explain the dog whining.

 

[out of whack]

it doesn't explain the dog whining.

Dogs typically react to their master's mood.

 

[EL]

Artman It simply cannot be explained, until someone experiences it first hand they can't imagine what it is. I didn't believe there was something unexplainable until it happened to me and several others where there to witness it at the same time.

Evo, I'm a bit interested in what exactly you have experienced. Do you mind telling us?

 

[Evo]

Evo, I'm a bit interested in what exactly you have experienced. Do you mind telling us?

It was over a 2 year period while my youger daughter was 12-14. It got so bad that my older daughter moved to her dad's and was afraid to come back inside the house. She would call me and ask what else had happened. Everything stopped abruptly after she turned 14, nothing unusual since. Just things moving, noises, seeing things that weren't there. The best one was a cat that was sound asleep was hurtled sideways off my bed several feet through the air (sideways, still curled up) crashing into and knocking over a box fan. Like they say, there is an explanation for everything.

 

[Andre]

During my conscription in military surface we had this field exercise. This was in the time that the men were of steel and the airplanes of wood. The commander had decided that we started the exercise at midnight with a infiltration attempt on foot for my platoon, sneaking behind enemy lines under cover of the darkness. 20 miles walking with tonnes of hardware. The attempt was unsuccesful since the "enemy"-commander had the same idea. But resourceful as our commander was, he decided to make another attempt the second night, but now with the entire company. That it was our platoon second night in a row was only a technicality. After all, you had to give everything you had for the country.

So at the end of that second night with deprivation of sleep for some 48 hours, suddenly enemy trucks were driving around in circles around our group. But it remained dead silent. Ghost trucks. Just halucinations and plenty of them. Very vividly. I would have done weird things if I had not realized that I was just halucinating. Human brains can be very open for that after which you would swear that it was real.

 

[EL]

Ok, let's focus on this one:

The best one was a cat that was sound asleep was hurtled sideways off my bed several feet through the air (sideways, still curled up) crashing into and knocking over a box fan.

How much of this did you honestly see? Where you looking at the cat when it started to "hurtle"? How did the cat react? What did you do just before this happened? Were you tired?

 

[out of whack]

Like they say, there is an explanation for everything.

Absotively. One has to be exceptionally naive to blame ghosts for unexplained events of that kind. It has nothing to do with ghosts. It's the Martians.

Human brains can be very open for that after which you would swear that it was real.

I have also observed my mind doing its own thing when sleep deprived or even a few times without obvious cause: hallucinations of course, also completely forgetting certain events, and conversely I would not be surprised to learn that some of my memories are false. The mind naturally interpolates unknown events between known ones, filling in the blanks with the most credible path. But this can easily be wrong and result in perceived miracles. And then, there's always the Martians...

 

[Moridin]

Artman It simply cannot be explained, until someone experiences it first hand they can't imagine what it is. I didn't believe there was something unexplainable until it happened to me and several others where there to witness it at the same time.

Some people will never experience it, so to them it doesn't exist, what ever "it" might be. I can't blame those that haven't experienced it to disbelieve it. We will just consider ourselves "special".

I do not believe in the supernatural, but I have had auditory / sensory hallucinations on several occasions.

 

[Evo]

Ok, let's focus on this one:



How much of this did you honestly see?

All of it.

Where you looking at the cat when it started to "hurtle"?

Yes, I was reading in bed and the cat was lying next to me, I heard a startled yelp, looked up and the cat appeared as if it had just been scooped up and tossed from where it was lying.

How did the cat react?

Very startled. After it hit the fan, it bolted away.

What did you do just before this happened? Were you tired?

I was reading, my daughter was on the floor near the fan also reading, I believe. Not tired. It shook us both up quite a bit.

 

[out of whack]

I have a hypothesis: Martians spooked him! Unless he had a nightmare or some brain hiccup. Cats don't fly so he must have jumped and from a curled posture the jump was more horizontal than vertical. Had the cat been on a waxed floor instead of a plush surface you might have only seen leg spasms. If you were looking at a book instead of the cat then you could not spot any leg action.

 

[Moridin]

My general position is that before we claim that something is out of this world, we should first make sure that it is not in it.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I'm open minded to a good explanation, but it doesn't explain the dog whining.

Why not?

 

[zoobyshoe]

So at the end of that second night with deprivation of sleep for some 48 hours, suddenly enemy trucks were driving around in circles around our group. But it remained dead silent. Ghost trucks. Just halucinations and plenty of them. Very vividly. I would have done weird things if I had not realized that I was just halucinating. Human brains can be very open for that after which you would swear that it was real.

That's a fascinating story, Andre. I've heard a few other sleep deprivation/hallucination stories and the hallucinations all seem to be especially vivid. Human brains can, indeed, construct things from within that you would swear are real. A lot of these stories come from people doing long distance sailing in yachts where they're forced to stay at the rudder for many hour at a time. Your "ghost trucks" remind me of the many tales of "ghost ships".

 

[EL]

Yes, I was reading in bed and the cat was lying next to me, I heard a startled yelp, looked up and the cat appeared as if it had just been scooped up and tossed from where it was lying.

So you didn't see all of it, right? You didn't see when it was scooped up? If I get you right you're only saying that at the time you first looked at the cat, it looked like it had just been scooped and tossed from where it was lying.

I was reading, my daughter was on the floor near the fan also reading, I believe.

So your daughter didn't really see what happened to the cat? (Before it hit the fan that is.)

At the moment I propose the following:
* The cat jumped into the fan itself. Your brain happened to misinterpret the situation, either because of some optical illusion due to things like observation angle and/or light conditions in the room, or because you were simply (partly) hallucinating.

As long as your daughter didn't see exactly the same thing (but how could she if she was on the floor?) I cannot think of any simpler solution.

 

[Evo]

So you didn't see all of it, right? You didn't see when it was scooped up? If I get you right you're only saying that at the time you first looked at the cat, it looked like it had just been scooped and tossed from where it was lying.
So your daughter didn't really see what happened to the cat? (Before it hit the fan that is.)

Wrong on all counts. As soon as the cat yealped, we both looked up as it left the bed. We watched it sail sideways into the fan. We got to watch it from two different angles, me from the bed as it sailed away from me into the fan, and her as it came towards her and hit the fan next to her.

Sorry, try again.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I have also observed my mind doing its own thing when sleep deprived or even a few times without obvious cause: hallucinations of course, also completely forgetting certain events, and conversely I would not be surprised to learn that some of my memories are false. The mind naturally interpolates unknown events between known ones, filling in the blanks with the most credible path. But this can easily be wrong and result in perceived miracles. And then, there's always the Martians...

You're refreshingly mellow and easy going about the insights you have into the sometimes unreliable nature of your mind.

 

[EL]

Wrong on all counts. As soon as the cat yealped, we both looked up as it left the bed. We watched it sail sideways into the fan. We got to watch it from two different angles, me from the bed as it sailed away from me into the fan, and her as it came towards her and hit the fan next to her.

Sorry, try again.

Ok, how fast did the cat appear to move through the air?
Right afterwards, did you and your daughter completely agree on what had happened? Are you sure you didn't in some way persuade her what had happened?
Do you still agree?

 

[Chi Meson]

Let me suggest that we don't try to pursue this investigation. For those of us who do not believe the flying cat story: there is nothing that Evo can say that will make us believe it is true.

Similarly, there is nothing we can say or propose that will make Evo think that events didn't transpire exactly how she has stated it.

It's lose, lose.

I will point out that eyewitness accounts of events are actually the least accurate and reliable sources of data and information.

 

[Evo]

Ok, how fast did the cat appear to move through the air?

I'd say about average speed for a flying cat. She was still curled up in a ball.

Right afterwards, did you and your daughter completely agree on what had happened?

Yes, we couldn't believe it. After we both basically said WTF? She asked me if I threw the cat, because when she looked up, she saw the cat in the air heading for the fan.

Are you sure you didn't in some way persuade her what had happened?

Positive. We were both very confused, but odd incidents had become so normal that we just chalked it up to another of those "weird" things that were happening.

Do you still agree?

Yes, once in awhile the subject of those 2 years will come up. Just lots of odd things. Our house got a reputation for being spooky. Like I said previously, I don't believe in an after life, so I don't believe in ghosts.

 

[Evo]

Let me suggest that we don't try to pursue this investigation. For those of us who do not believe the flying cat story: there is nothing that Evo can say that will make us believe it is true.

Similarly, there is nothing we can say or propose that will make Evo think that events didn't transpire exactly how she has stated it.

It's lose, lose.

I will point out that eyewitness accounts of events are actually the least accurate and reliable sources of data and information.

There are a lot of plausible answers. She could have had a bizarre muscle spasm. Had a nightmare that caused her to jolt through the air. How many cats do you know of that jump into a box fan that's running? I'm not asking to be believed, just stating what happened. Cat is sleeping, cat hits box fan several feet away sideways and knocks it over. If you want to believe that's normal, no problem.

Actually zooby and I have had quite a few discussions on the possibility of infrasound or other similar (electrical perhaps) reasons for a lot of the oddities. I've stopped shopping at the nearest grocery store because the noise in the frozen foods section is so loud and causes my head to feel like it's going to burst and no one else hears or feels anything. It started when they put the new freezers in. I think I'm susceptible to certain frequencies.

 

[rewebster]

Evo---do you think that hawk was a ghost?

 

[Evo]

Evo---do you think that hawk was a ghost?

No, he was obviously sent from another universe.

 

[rewebster]

No, he was obviously sent from another universe.

well, if you combine the two stories it would be a kitty hawk, wright?

 

[Chi Meson]

We have had two cats. Our dear Sappho (lost to the coyotes ten years ago ) was known for some incredible leaps. Never curled up though. Our current cat, Annie (his full name is Annis McMannus) has developed remarkable flying powers himself. The response/reaction time for cats is faster than ours. Unless we are staring at the cats while the odd thing happens, we can only see the event from the periphery. Peripheral vision is notoriously modified by our brains.

All I'm really saying is that there is plenty of room for skepticism for all eyewitness details.

Back to the OP in general: can ghosts interact with solid objects, or can't they? For ghosts stories to be true, then they have to switch on and off there ability to interact with "our stuff." They float through walls, but then they throw cats through the air (to use the nearest example).

They can't be photographed, until they want to. In order for the ghost images to show up on photographic film, when they weren't visible tho the eye, the ghosts (I'm thinking of the civil war ghosts here) all agree to take a trip into the camera's film and manipulate the emulsion (ghosts have a good education in chemistry) to cause the effect of exposure to particular wavelengths of photons. Clever ghosts!

They can't be seen, but then they can, occasionally. So they are made up of stuff that can't be detected, which is to say, material that doesn't absorb and or reemit radiation. Then the same material, that has no detectable properties, can switch on according to their will to emit visible spectrum radiation. OK, so it must be an energy source we have no knowledge of. Or maybe they get inside our heads and manipulate our visual perception according to their whims. If two people see it at the same time, then they manage to manipulate two brains simultaneously. Clever ghosts.

OR maybe they only exist in our brains.

 

[rewebster]

There are a lot of plausible answers. She could have had a bizarre muscle spasm. Had a nightmare that caused her to jolt through the air. How many cats do you know of that jump into a box fan that's running? I'm not asking to be believed, just stating what happened. Cat is sleeping, cat hits box fan several feet away sideways and knocks it over. If you want to believe that's normal, no problem.

Actually zooby and I have had quite a few discussions on the possibility of infrasound or other similar (electrical perhaps) reasons for a lot of the oddities. I've stopped shopping at the nearest grocery store because the noise in the frozen foods section is so loud and causes my head to feel like it's going to burst and no one else hears or feels anything. It started when they put the new freezers in. I think I'm susceptible to certain frequencies.

OR, you could have had a muscle spasm and kicked the cat into the fan

______________________________-

let's see, I've seen a housefly, I've seen a horsefly, I've even seen a deerfly--but I've never seen a catfly

 

[Evo]

OR, you could have had a muscle spasm and kicked the cat into the fan

Now, that's possible. I could have twitched my legs, which spooked the sleeping cat, especially if it was dreaming. I'll never forget the look on that cat's face after she hit the fan. She still wasn't fully awake.

My hunter counterpart at work, the one that stopped and shot a turkey on the way to work, he just happened to have a loaded rifle in his truck and saw it in a field near his house. Hey, I just eat the stuff after he cooks it, I don't ask questions.

Anyway he tried to help me identify the hawk and brought some bird books in, but it seems all books have the same pictures.

 

[rewebster]

"I've stopped shopping at the nearest grocery store because the noise in the frozen foods section is so loud and causes my head to feel like it's going to burst and no one else hears or feels anything. It started when they put the new freezers in. I think I'm susceptible to certain frequencies."

just turn your hearing aids down--that should help


____________________________________-

Now, that's possible. I could have twitched my legs, which spooked the sleeping cat, especially if it was dreaming. I'll never forget the look on that cat's face after she hit the fan. She still wasn't fully awake.

NOW, you're thinking like a MAN (logically, that is!)