News What were the consequences of Israel's attack on the Gaza Aid Flotilla?

[arildno]

Getting back to the topic: a 19 year old American citizen was killed in the debacle. Reportedly, they were shot 4 times in the head, and once in the chest, at close range. This definitely smells like foul play on the part of IDF. Source:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/06/03/2010-06-03_american_citizen_among_dead_in_botched_israeli_raid_of_gazabound_flotilla.html"

Why foul play?

If the 9 persons had had a single bullet wound in the back of their heads, THEN I'd say foul play.

But in a messy scuffle, people fighting everywhere, 4 guys seeing a friend in need from somebody atop of him, and they all fire at him, as well as their friend, then the assailant will end up dead from an over-abundance of bullet, most of them from..VERY SHORT RANGE, indeed.

 

[OmCheeto]

Sorry, but what do those images have to do with anything... ?

Everything young Tub. Everything.

 

[arildno]

Similar to what I've heard, that only the rich have the luxury of available food.

Nonsense.

Starvation symptoms will be apparent after one week, not imperceptibly over 3 years.

This is a biological..fact.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Nonsense.

Starvation symptoms will be apparent after one week, not imperceptibly over 3 years.

This is a biological..fact.

What I mean is ENOUGH food. Certainly, they may survive, but they hardly live a good life. According to the UN, 61% COMPLETELY rely on supplies... which also according to the UN, there's nowhere near enough of.

OmCheeto: Looks like you're trying to pull off the "These people have it worse, so these guys have it just fine!" show. I've never quite liked it.

 

[arildno]

Yeah, I don't get what Hamas is doing now. They want to antagonize their own people too?

Why should Hamas be hated by mistreating their populace??

That is NOT correct psychology..

People hate those they have some hope fighting&winning over, not those they are REALLY scared of...

I have made a thread upon this previously:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=294415&highlight=stabilizing+terror

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Why should Hamas be hated by mistreating their populace??

That is NOT correct psychology..

People hate those they have some hope fighting&winning over, not those they are REALLY scared of...

I have made a thread upon this previously:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=294415&highlight=stabilizing+terror

I REALLY don't think the Palestinians have much hope of winning over Israel. I don't think Hamas does, either. If they do, they are QUITE detached from reality.

 

[Office_Shredder]

What I mean is ENOUGH food. Certainly, they may survive, but they hardly live a good life. According to the UN, 61% COMPLETELY rely on supplies... which also according to the UN, there's nowhere near enough of.

OmCheeto: Looks like you're trying to pull off the "These people have it worse, so these guys have it just fine!" show. I've never quite liked it.

The point is if they completely rely on supplies, and there is only a quarter of the necessary supplies, this means people should be starving to death

 

[TubbaBlubba]

The point is if they completely rely on supplies, and there is only a quarter of the necessary supplies, this means people should be starving to death

That brings us into another question that's bugging me. What is the qualitative properties of these "supplies" and which are in short... supply? (no pun intended). A ton of rice is a hell of a lot more than a ton of concrete.

 

[arildno]

What I mean is ENOUGH food. Certainly, they may survive, but they hardly live a good life. According to the UN, 61% COMPLETELY rely on supplies... which also according to the UN, there's nowhere near enough of.

OmCheeto: Looks like you're trying to pull off the "These people have it worse, so these guys have it just fine!" show. I've never quite liked it.

Did you even BOTHER to read the numerous stats I have provided for, for example, the infant mortality rates (IMR) in Gaza&West Bank compared to other countries??

Evidently not!

Here, I re-publish the one showing how the number of dead infants pr. 1000 live births is compared by OIC countries:

How do West Bank and Gaza compare with OIC members/countries with dominant Muslim population?

Here is the ranking list of 60 countries, IMR's per 1000 live births:

1. UAE: 7
2. Kuwait: 8.97
3. Saudi-Arabia: 11.57
4. Brunei: 12.27
5. Qatar: 12.66
6. Bahrain: 15.09
7. Malaysia: 15.87
8. WEST BANK: 15.96
9. Syria: 16.69
10. Oman: 16.88
11. Jordan: 17.38
12. GAZA: 18.35
13. Suriname: 18.81
14. Libya: 21.7
15. Lebanon: 21.82
16. Tunisia: 22.57
17. Uzbekistan: 23.43
18. Kazakhstan: 25.73
19. Turkey: 25.78
20. Egypt: 27.26
21. Algeria: 27.73
22. Maldives: 29.53
23. Morocco: 29.75
24. Indonesia: 29.97
25. Kyrgyzystan: 31.26
26. Iran: 35.78
27. Guyana: 39.11
28. Tajikistan: 41.03
29. Eritrea: 43.33
30. Iraq: 44.65
31. Turkmenistan: 45.36
32. Gabon: 51.78
33. Azerbaijan: 54.6
34. Mayotte: 56.29
35. Togo: 56.84
36. Djibouti: 58.33
37. Yemen: 58.4
38. Senegal: 58.94
39. Bangladesh: 59.02
40. Cameroon: 63.34
41. Mauretania: 63.42
42. Benin: 64.64
43. Uganda: 64.82
44. Guinea: 65.22
45. Comorros: 66.57
46. Pakistan: 67.36
47. Ivory Coast: 68.06
48. Gambia: 68.84
49. Western Sahara: 69.66
50. Sierra Leone: 81.86
51. Burkina Faso: 84.49
52. Nigeria: 94.35
53. Chad: 98.69
54. Guinea-Bissau: 99.82
55. Mozambique: 105.8
56. Somalia: 109.19
57. Mali: 115.86
58. Niger: 116.66
59. Afghanistan 153. 14

Gaza&West Bank is among the NOBILITY of the Muslim world, right up there with countries like Saudia-Arabia, Kuwait and United Arab Emirates

 

[TubbaBlubba]

From what I have understood, they have a fairly working health care system. IMR:s don't say everything about life quality.

 

[arildno]

I REALLY don't think the Palestinians have much hope of winning over Israel. I don't think Hamas does, either. If they do, they are QUITE detached from reality.

Not without the misguided help from people like you.

It is for people like you they stage these flotilla incident shams, and you swallow it, hook, line and sinker...

 

[arildno]

From what I have understood, they have a fairly working health care system.

Oh, really?

Without medicines and food, as we are told?

Perhaps no doctors, either?

 

[estro]

From what I have understood, they have a fairly working health care system. IMR:s don't say everything about life quality.

Many of them receive medical care in Israel.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Not without the misguided help from people like you.

It is for people like you they stage these flotilla incident shams, and you swallow it, hook, line and sinker...

And once again the ad hominem attacks raid in. I was obviously referring to a MILITARY victory.

You also completely ignored the fact that I DO question exactly what is in short supply.

 

[Office_Shredder]

From what I have understood, they have a fairly working health care system. IMR:s don't say everything about life quality.

How can you have a working healthcare system when nobody gets the necessary food to live a healthy life? And how do they get those medical supplies, make them? When they can't rebuild houses? Obviously they at least get enough medical aid

Another quality of life measurement, life span:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

Gaza and the West bank both pull in right around the 100th ranking, with an average life span of 74 years. This puts them both above the median on that ranking

And once again the ad hominem attacks raid in. I was obviously referring to a MILITARY victory.

You also completely ignored the fact that I DO question exactly what is in short supply.

"Winning over" someone rarely refers to a military victory

 

[TubbaBlubba]

How can you have a working healthcare system when nobody gets the necessary food to live a healthy life? And how do they get those medical supplies, make them? When they can't rebuild houses? Obviously they at least get enough medical aid

Another quality of life measurement, life span:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

Gaza and the West bank both pull in right around the 100th ranking, with an average life span of 74 years. This puts them both above the median on that ranking

*Sigh* Yes, this is exactly why I want to know WHICH supplies the UN considers them to be in need of.

Also, if they have low IRM, obviously their average life span will be higher.

 

[Office_Shredder]

*Sigh* Yes, this is exactly why I want to know WHICH supplies the UN considers them to be in need of.

Also, if they have low IRM, obviously their average life span will be higher.

Unless they're suffering from malnutrition related health problems. I claimed that it was decided that there was enough food in Gaza, some people decided that it wasn't really setted, so the point now is to settle the issue. If you still need evidence that Gazans have food on the dinner table, let us know.

Going back to the flotilla aid, and whether they were carrying weapons:

Major David Elmaliach, also from the Gaza CLA, said that no guns, rockets or explosives were found on any of the ships.

 

[arildno]

*Sigh* Yes, this is exactly why I want to know WHICH supplies the UN considers them to be in need of.

Also, if they have low IRM, obviously their average life span will be higher.

No, those figures are not in any significant amount inversely proportional quantities.
High incidence of untreated infectious diseases can very well reduce the average life span without adversely affecting IMR.

That is why BOTH such figures is regularly checked for.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Unless they're suffering from malnutrition related health problems. I claimed that it was decided that there was enough food in Gaza, some people decided that it wasn't really setted, so the point now is to settle the issue. If you still need evidence that Gazans have food on the dinner table, let us know.

Okay, let me rephrase:

If they're so well off, then why does the UN insist that they're not?

 

[arildno]

Okay, let me rephrase:

If they're so well off, then why does the UN insist that they're not?

When it comes to questions concerning Israel, and questions concerning Islam, UN is totally bankrupt.

That is evidenced by having countries like Saudi Arabia and Libya on its HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL!

Iran had to content itself with a position in the..WOMEN RIGHTS COMMISSION.

THAT is what the UN has degenerated into.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Well, I never liked the UN since... Oh, the Korea war or so. But I still think that they are usually fairly sensible when it comes to human rights. I really question why they would exaggerate the situation in Gaza.

 

[arildno]

Well, I never liked the UN since... Oh, the Korea war or so. But I still think that they are usually fairly sensible when it comes to human rights.

Particularly in its choice of members on the Human Rights Council?

 

[Office_Shredder]

Okay, let me rephrase:

If they're so well off, then why does the UN insist that they're not?

They're probably referring to building supplies, but it's impossible to tell. I can't even figure out who the number came from, so I guess that's the end of discussing it

 

[zomgwtf]

You guys do know that you can go onto the UN website and read the decisions and what all the Nations delegates said at various meetings and such right? Many nations outside of the middle east have made calls to increase aid available to the gaza strip. So I'm not sure how biased those opinions are.

I also am not sure what those opinions are based on in the first place, as it doesn't supply data.

But you CAN go to amnesty and look up data on there.(I'm pretty sure amnesty is another international group calling for increased aid.) I believe that these international groups just make a habit of constantly calling for increases in aid no matter the situation for many times I don't know what to believe. .

 

[arildno]

That brings us into another question that's bugging me. What is the qualitative properties of these "supplies" and which are in short... supply? (no pun intended). A ton of rice is a hell of a lot more than a ton of concrete.

They are complaining about the lack of concrete&coriander, in a previously linked to a Washington post article by me (in post 273):
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6/02/AR2010060204687.html?sid=ST2010060204691

The final paragraph is VERY telling:

Gazans readily admit they are not going hungry. But that, they say, is the wrong benchmark for assessing their quality of life. While Gaza has long been poor, the economy has completely crumbled over the past three years.

Gazan workers, Shaban said, "used to be earning $100 per day, smoking Marlboros and going to Egypt every two months on vacation."

Now, he said, "I see people spending 10 hours a day for [$5] digging up stones."

How long have we heard about the awful plight of the Palestinians? For 2 years? For 5? More like for the last 60 years or so.

And now we learn, that in those years of horror and destitution, Gazan workers went on vacation to Egypt every two months...

 

[arildno]

Hmm, concrete and coriander, or rocket attacks... let. me. think. I think I'll take the complaints.

You're welcome!

By the way, Geigerclick, in another thread we have reached a quandary as to the relative percentages of Ashkenazis and Sephardim/Mizrahi in Israel.

According to my wiki-source, there is a slight majority of Mizrahis among the Jews in Israel, while the other states there is a majority of Ashkenazis.

Presuming you're from Israel, do you have any more reliable figures than wiki-sources on this issue?

 

[arildno]

While the following statistic cannot, of course, be used to say anything about present-day material depredations in Gaza&West Bank, it speaks volumes about how terrible life have been there for the last six decades. Or perhaps..not:

Literacy rates:

1. Kuwait: 93.3%
2. GAZA 92.4%
3. WEST BANK: 92.4%
4. Jordan: 89.9%
5. Qatar: 89%
6. Turkey: 87.4%
7. Lebanon: 87.4%
8. Bahrain: 86.5%
9. Libya: 82.6%
10. Oman: 81.4%
11. Syria: 79.6%
12. Saudi-Arabia: 78.8%
13. UAE. 77.9%
14. Iran: 77%
15. Tunisia: 74.3%
16. Iraq: 74.1%
17. Egypt: 71.4%
18. Algeria: 69.9%
19. Morocco: 52.3%
20. Yemen: 50.2%

Compiled from indexmundi

 

[magpies]

92%? That seems a little high can it really be 92%? What reading level is that?

 

[arildno]

92%? That seems a little high can it really be 92%? What reading level is that?

Comparison numbers for Israel is 97.1%, and for the US, 99%

Check them for yourself

 

[magpies]

In collecting literacy data, many countries estimate the number of literate people based on self-reported data. Some use educational attainment data as a proxy, but measures of school attendance or grade completion may differ. Because definitions and data collection methods vary across countries, literacy estimates should be used with caution.