News What were the consequences of Israel's attack on the Gaza Aid Flotilla?

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A group of peace advocates attempted to deliver humanitarian supplies to Gaza via a convoy, which was intercepted by the Israeli military in international waters. The IDF's response resulted in significant injuries and fatalities among the activists, raising accusations of state terrorism against Israel. The incident has sparked intense debate, with some arguing that the activists provoked the confrontation intentionally for media attention, while others condemn Israel's military actions as excessive and unjustified. The Israeli government had previously offered to allow the supplies to be inspected and delivered through its ports, which the convoy organizers refused. The situation has drawn international criticism, particularly regarding the humanitarian impact of Israel's blockade on Gaza, and has heightened tensions, especially with Turkey, which has expressed outrage over the incident. The legality of Israel's actions is contested, with arguments surrounding international law and the enforcement of blockades. The discussion reflects deep divisions over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the complexities of humanitarian efforts in a militarized context.
  • #331
tiny-tim said:
You mean in 1948?

Israel did exactly that (negotiated for a two-state solution) …

the negotiations ended in the 1947 UN partition plan …

Israel declared the Israeli state, expecting the (Palestinian) Arabs to declare an Arab state, but the Arabs didn't …

instead they allowed the Arab League countries to breach the UN charter by attempting to destroy Israel, and they were occupied by Jordan (the West bank) and by Egypt (the Gaza strip) for 19 years without ever asking Jordan or Egypt for independence.

If they had obtained independence from Jordan and Egypt, that would have been the two-state solution which both the UN and Israel wanted …

60 years ago! :smile:​

How has the territorial plans and solutions varied between the years? From what I understand, Israel wasn't satisfied with the portion they got.

arildno said:
Why should people not despise thieves, and cultures organized in such a manner that the members cannot hold proper jobs within a modern society (i.e, nomadism)?

Why are you so condemning of people? Yes, thievery is a big problem. But the solution is certainly not, as the did and still do in many former USSR countries, to let them go in schools for the mentally retarded and then give them the worst jobs possible. Rather, we need to put a bigger focus on education. You appear to be stuck in a "THEM BAD, WE GOOD!" mindset. It's sad.
 
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  • #332
TubbaBlubba,
You know it is very easy to sit in Sweden (where the only problem is boredom) and do bla...bla...bla... about peace and love. But we in Israel don't have the time to wear pink-glasses we need to fight for our existence.
Have you seen war? Have you seen your friends die? Have you risked your life?
It's seems to me you are more a talk lover then peace seeker...
 
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  • #333
estro said:
TubbaBlubba,
You know it is very easy to sit in Sweden (where the only problem is boredom) and do bla...bla...bla... about peace and love. But we in Israel don't have time to wear pink-glasses we need to fight for our existence.
Have you seen war? Have you seen your friends die? Have you risked your life? Have you seen the conflict with your own eyes?

So now I can't have an opinion because I don't have a nationally biased view?
 
  • #334
TubbaBlubba said:
How has the territorial plans and solutions varied between the years? From what I understand, Israel wasn't satisfied with the portion they got.

Eh, no.

It was the arab nations that REJECTED the two-state solution back in 1948 (and every attempt prior to that). Then, they went to war.
Jordan annexed most of what should have been a Palestine state, whereas the Israel managed to hold onto what had been given to them by the UN, possibly gaining something as well
(Not sure on the distributive key here, between Jordan and Israel).
 
  • #335
arildno said:
Eh, no.

It was the arab nations that REJECTED the two-state solution back in 1948 (and every attempt prior to that). Then, they went to war.
Jordan annexed most of what should have been a Palestine state, whereas the Israel managed to hold onto what had been given to them by the UN, possibly gaining something as well
(Not sure on the distributive key here, between Jordan and Israel).

What I mean is, what was the original plan, and how does it compare to how it looks today?
 
  • #336
TubbaBlubba said:
So now I can't have an opinion because I don't have a nationally biased view?

Opinion must be shaped by reality and not by cartoon network channel...
 
  • #337
TubbaBlubba said:
Why are you so condemning of people? Yes, thievery is a big problem. But the solution is certainly not, as the did and still do in many former USSR countries, to let them go in schools for the mentally retarded and then give them the worst jobs possible. Rather, we need to put a bigger focus on education. You appear to be stuck in a "THEM BAD, WE GOOD!" mindset. It's sad.

Education does not eradicate the contempt of non-Romani Romanis cultivate amongst themselves.

In Norway, we have given education, cars, houses to Romanis since 1945.
Nothing whatsoever have helped. THe Romani parents take out their kids from school for two or three months a time in the middle of the school year. 1-ONE- single gypsy has finished senior high in 65 years. Most live on lavish welfare, and STILL are extremely over-represented in the crime statistics (theft) in Norway.
 
  • #338
estro said:
Opinion must be shaped by reality and not by cartoon network channel...

You mean like Dror Feiler, who was an Israeli paratrooper and left the country in disgust of its actions, and was one of the organizers of the flotilla?

You're in a position where it is convenient and relieving to assume that what YOUR country does is RIGHT.

arildno said:
Education does not eradicate the contempt of non-Romani Romanis cultivate amongst themselves.

In Norway, we have given education, cars, houses to Romanis since 1945.
Nothing whatsoever have helped. THe Romani parents take out their kids from school for two or three months a time in the middle of the school year. 1-ONE- single gypsy has finished senior high in 65 years. Most live on lavish welfare, and STILL are extremely over-represented in the crime statistics (theft) in Norway.
Yes, I realize this is a problem. It's obviously something you have to work out from the inside. They are, however, people just like you and me. And no people deserves to be despised.
 
  • #339
TubbaBlubba said:
You mean like Dror Feiler, who was an Israeli paratrooper and left the country in disgust of its actions, and was one of the organizers of the flotilla?

You're in a position where it is convenient and relieving to assume that what YOUR country does is RIGHT.


Yes, I realize this is a problem. It's obviously something you have to work out from the inside. They are, however, people just like you and me. And no people deserves to be despised.
He has the right for opinion, YOU are NOT...
 
  • #340
estro said:
He has the right for opinion, YOU are NOT...

Aha. And how come? Because I disagree with you? If I was pro-Israel, would I have the right to an opinion?
 
  • #341
TubbaBlubba said:
Aha. And how come? Because I disagree with you? If I was pro-Israel, would I have the right to an opinion?

I disagree with Dror Feiler's opinion, but he has the right for opinion because he did see the conflict with his own eyes. You have never seen the conflict...
 
  • #342
estro said:
I disagree with Dror Feiler's opinion, but he has the right for opinion because he saw the conflict with his own eyes. You have never seen the conflict...

What about the Pro-Israel people? They haven't seen the conflict either. How can they be against Gaza without having been there?
 
  • #343
TubbaBlubba said:
Yes, I realize this is a problem. It's obviously something you have to work out from the inside.
COmpletely wrong. It is solely the fault of Romani individuals, and leftists like yourself, who demand that we others should finance them by welfare.
They are, however, people just like you and me.
And?
So were Attila, Hitler, or for that matter, Mother Teresa. Completely irrelevant.
And no people deserves to be despised.
Totally wrong.
Some people should be despised, on basis of their actions, or lack of actions.

This holds both on the individual level, and on the level of human aggregates like cultures.

(When speaking of aggregates, one should always be aware that while the culture might be fundamentally despicable, not all individuals within that culture can be said to embody the despicable elements within "their" culture. )
 
  • #344
TubbaBlubba said:
What about the Pro-Israel people? They haven't seen the conflict either. How can they be against Gaza without having been there?
I'm not interested in pro or anti opinions of people with pink-glasses...
True opinions are shaped by loss of friends lives.
 
  • #345
arildno said:
COmpletely wrong. It is solely the fault of Romani individuals, and leftists like yourself, who demand that we others should finance them by welfare.

And?
So were Attila, Hitler, or for that matter, Mother Teresa. Completely irrelevant.

Totally wrong.
Some people should be despised, on basis of their actions, or lack of actions.

This holds both on the individual level, and on the level of human aggregates like cultures.

(When speaking of aggregates, one should always be aware that while the culture might be fundamentally despicable, not all individuals within that culture can be said to embody the despicable elements within "their" culture. )

Sigh. I'm tired of this. You CONSTANTLY try to put the blame on the fact that there are LEFTISTS (yep, the conspiracy of communism, it still lives!), because they don't agree with you. Well, guess what, the economic problems of the world are caused by RIGHTISTS like yourself!

It is entirely and completely right. The only way to integrate the "isolating" Romanis is to give them an appreciation of the economic culture of the world, and this can only be done by having people they trust educate them on this. There ARE well-educated romanis who do work for this. It's probably something that more active action should be taken on.

I'm speaking of people in singular. Obviously some individuals are despicable. However, people in general and as a group are often very similar. Many muslims flee to Sweden from Iran, and I've met many of them. Guess what, they're people just like you and me, despite living under governments that do detestable things. Like it or not, most people don't question things the way you and I do, but rather they follow along the stream. A better economic standard would certainly help the people of Palestine, for one.

estro: I'm rapidly losing interest in this discussion with you. Do you have anything of substance to add?
 
  • #346
TubbaBlubba said:
What about the Pro-Israel people? They haven't seen the conflict either. How can they be against Gaza without having been there?
You do know that there are many people on these forums who are/have been part of the armed forces or have family/friends in the armed forces right?

I think what estro is trying to get across to you is that it's easy to bad-talk 'immoral' acts during a war but really, you shouldn't voice your opinion unless you know what your talking about. In the case of war and losing friends etc. that's only something you can learn from experience, not from the biased news sources, or a book.
 
  • #347
zomgwtf said:
You do know that there are many people on these forums who are/have been part of the armed forces or have family/friends in the armed forces right?

I think what estro is trying to get across to you is that it's easy to bad-talk 'immoral' acts during a war but really, you shouldn't voice your opinion unless you know what your talking about. In the case of war and losing friends etc. that's only something you can learn from experience, not from the biased news sources, or a book.

We're talking about the action of states here, however, not individuals. I can't say I know what it is like to have a friend killed, but I do think that having experienced that would give me a biased view against whoever killed him, regardless of their intentions or reasons to.
 
  • #348
TubbaBlubba said:
Sigh. I'm tired of this. You CONSTANTLY try to put the blame on the fact that there are LEFTISTS (yep, the conspiracy of communism, it still lives!), because they don't agree with you.

No. I disagree with a lot of people, many of whom are not leftists, and wouldn't call them so.
Well, guess what, the economic problems of the world are caused by RIGHTISTS like yourself!
Care to cite some...EVIDENCE for that?

Oh, I forgot:
You are so noble of mind and pure of heart, that ugly little stuff like..HARD EVIDENCE must be shied away from.

You have exactly the same problems with the Romani in Sweden as well, haven't you?

Note:
I don't KNOW that, I ASSUME that.

Can you furnish some evidence that goes either my way, or that proves that the Romanis of Sweden are largely integrated in the Swedish economy, with roughly the same crime rates as the resident, native population?
 
  • #349
TubbaBlubba said:
...
estro: I'm rapidly losing interest in this discussion with you. Do you have anything of substance to add?
...

My aim was to rapidly discourage you from discussing things you have no idea about...
 
  • #350
arildno said:
No. I disagree with a lot of people, many of whom are not leftists, and wouldn't call them so.

Care to cite some...EVIDENCE for that?

Oh, I forgot:
You are so noble of mind and pure of heart, that ugly little stuff like..HARD EVIDENCE must be shied away from.

You have exactly the same problems with the Romani in Sweden as well, haven't you?

Note:
I don't KNOW that, I ASSUME that.

Can you furnish some evidence that goes either my way, or that proves that the Romanis of Sweden are largely integrated in the Swedish economy, with roughly the same crime rates as the resident, native population?

Not exactly sure how it currently is, it's not a subject very often touched upon (for whatever reason). I do know that they are frequently seen begging, and that at least some years ago theft was a large problem. I doubt we've been successfull in integrating them. So no, I do not have any "evidence" to furnish upon.

estro: And from the look of things I have no idea about it because I disagree with you. Good going.
 
  • #351
TubbaBlubba said:
We're talking about the action of states here, however, not individuals. I can't say I know what it is like to have a friend killed, but I do think that having experienced that would give me a biased view against whoever killed him, regardless of their intentions or reasons to.

Yeah, and one nation state wants to take out another nation state, basically by killing and invading the nation state constantly.

So the other nation state defends itself... simple.
 
  • #352
zomgwtf said:
Yeah, and one nation state wants to take out another nation state, basically by killing and invading the nation state constantly.

So the other nation state defends itself... simple.

Israel won the war against... Well, most of the Middle East (due to superior weaponry because of their support from the west). They're now conducting terrorism against the people in Gaza. I have no idea what they even want to ACHIEVE with that.

I know Egypt closed the border too, but they don't seem to speak much of the matter.
 
  • #353
zomgwtf said:
Yeah, and one nation state wants to take out another nation state, basically by killing and invading the nation state constantly.

So the other nation state defends itself... simple.

You forgot to mention the part that one state is constantly building illegal settlements and destroying homes of the other. Don't spin this as a simple matter of a nation defending itself from aggression.
 
  • #354
TubbaBlubba said:
Israel won the war against... Well, most of the Middle East (due to superior weaponry because of their support from the west). They're now conducting terrorism against the people in Gaza. I have no idea what they even want to ACHIEVE with that.

I know Egypt closed the border too, but they don't seem to speak much of the matter.

The independence war wasn't won by "superior weaponry", but by the sense of rightfulness for self existence.
 
  • #355
estro said:
The independence war wasn't won by "superior weaponry", but by the sense of rightfulness for self existence.

Uh-huh, uh-huh. Certainly not because Israel is one of the most powerful (the most powerful, even?) military superpower in the world and has the arguably best intelligence network in the world.
 
  • #356
TubbaBlubba said:
Uh-huh, uh-huh. Certainly not because Israel is one of the most powerful (the most powerful, even?) military superpower in the world and has the arguably best intelligence network in the world.

Are you sure you know what you are talking about?! The independence war took place when Israel was ONE DAY old. Back then IDF was improvisation.
But thank you for complimenting my nation=)
 
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  • #357
No it's not that its just that you are young and opinonated and it makes us older folks uneasy.
 
  • #358
estro said:
Are you sure you know what you are talking about?! The independence war took place when Israel was ONE DAY old. Back then IDF was improvisation.
But thank you for complimenting my nation=)

And they sure didn't receive any support from the US or the UN.

I like Israel in many ways, it's an amazing nation as far as science goes, and I'm sure it has a lot of interesting cultural aspects.

I however, condemn many of the military actions of it, and as I have said before, I will stand by my notion that the treatment of the Gaza strip is nothing less than state terrorism.

(Why are people fighting over it, anyway? Isn't it mostly... rocky desert?)
 
  • #359
TubbaBlubba said:
(Why are people fighting over it, anyway? Isn't it mostly... rocky desert?)

Some made that desert bloom, others are culturally trained to make it...BOOM!
 
  • #360
I just wish that a god of either side would appear and say "Hey, let's go find some nicer place, this place is boring."
 

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