News What were the consequences of Israel's attack on the Gaza Aid Flotilla?

[Passionflower]

So I'm guessing you aren't impressed by the physical evidence in the form of the exploded North Korean torpedo?

I am happy to share my opinions, but of course not in this thread, however I suspect that some other moderator does not want this discussed.

 

[magpies]

tiny-tim I find that hard to believe but who knows... I am looking for a good stats on the net right now not finding much that says your wrong. The reason I find it hard to believe is simply because of the fact that the area in question is pretty much desert so I don't see how more and more people could be able to live in that area without help from outside at least until things are built up enough.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

No, they have prevent the terrorists from receiving rockets, other weapons, and materials for storing and manufacturing weapons.

They have to prevent the terrorists from resuming their 8-year record of crimes against humanity by firing rockets daily at purely civilian targets.

Yes, these boats were clearly filled with TERRORISTS intending to deliver ROCKETS. That's why they boarded the boat like that. Not. If they had actually believed there were terrorists on the boats, they would have completely immobilized the boat, sprayed it with oil and then boarded it.


zomg: WHY do you think they fire rockets? WHY do you think they elect Hamas? Because the conditions in Gaza are MISERABLE. It's what happens when you squeeze people together on a small strip, give them nowhere near enough resources, and intentionally cut off all resource paths.

 

[magpies]

Ya I agree israel should just put them on welfare give them basically free *crappy* housing and food ect. It does actually seem like the best way to fix things.

 

[Count Iblis]

If I follow the pro-Israel logic here correctly, can Turkey can now blockade Israel, board ships and when encountering hostility while boarding ships, be in their right to use deadly force? If people are killed, it is the fault of "illegal resistance" against the boarding of ships, right?

 

[tiny-tim]

If I follow the pro-Israel logic here correctly, can Turkey can now blockade Israel, board ships …

Yes, of course.

Any country can blockade any other country with which it is in a war situation.

… and when encountering hostility while boarding ships, be in their right to use deadly force?

No, they would only be in their right to use deadly force in self-defence.

If people are killed, it is the fault of "illegal resistance" against the boarding of ships, right?

If with overwhelming numbers you attack people with iron bars and knives, someone is going to get killed.

If the Israeli soldiers had only had their paintball guns (and no pistols), then the Israeli soldiers would have been killed.

 

[jreelawg]

I am not pro blockade, it seams kind of cruel to me. But this is what is going on, and these solders have orders, and these activists probably expected some kind of major confrontation.

I just think it is a bastard situation to borrow a phrase. I think Israel should show their good will, by towing the aid to Gaza now that they have seized the ship, and gone through it.

 

[mheslep]

Ok so I just watched a video of the attempted ship take over. It looks like all kinds of stupid on both sides. The israeli guys plop down one at a time from helicopter onto the large ship with like 30 people standing around on the top deck. As soon as they land it looks like they are attacked mob style... Anyhow it was stupid for the israeli forces to try and take it over that way

Ok, what was the smart way?

 

[mheslep]

I find these threads instructive in their predictability.

I also find them predictable, but I've not yet picked up the instruction. Why are these 'OMG the IDF did blah, blah' threads so predictable, and the absence of 'OMG, Israelis are hiding from rocket attacks in their basements' equally as predictable? Do we credit media pile ons? Anti-semitism? The trend towards conspiracy theories? I don't get it.

 

[jreelawg]

Almost every thread is predictable when you've been at PF for long enough.

 

[Office_Shredder]

If I follow the pro-Israel logic here correctly, can Turkey can now blockade Israel, board ships and when encountering hostility while boarding ships, be in their right to use deadly force? If people are killed, it is the fault of "illegal resistance" against the boarding of ships, right?

The last time someone tried to blockade Israel we got the Six Day war. A Turkish blockade would certainly trigger total war between the two countries. A country would have to be insane to invite that kind of violence because of an incident like this

 

[mheslep]

I'd like a source on this statement, it strikes me as somewhat dubious.

This is also predictable in this kind of thread: some dozen posts by TubbaBlubba, most loaded with some assertion of fact or other with no reference, ending with a call for sources from others.

 

[Jack21222]

I also find them predictable, but I've not yet picked up the instruction. Why are these 'OMG the IDF did blah, blah' threads so predictable, and the absence of 'OMG, Israelis are hiding from rocket attacks in their basements' equally as predictable? Do we credit media pile ons? Anti-semitism? The trend towards conspiracy theories? I don't get it.

To my knowledge, Israelis aren't hiding in their basements from rocket attacks. Israelis are, for the most part, living the good life. A good friend of mine is Jewish and a self-proclaimed Zionist, and she LOVES vacationing in Israel. She tries to go ever year.

When you put a wealthy nation right next to a third world hellhole, bad things will happen, especially when the wealthy nation goes out of its way to make the third world hellhole even worse by encroaching on its land and cutting off resources.

 

[arildno]

To my knowledge, Israelis aren't hiding in their basements from rocket attacks. Israelis are, for the most part, living the good life. A good friend of mine is Jewish and a self-proclaimed Zionist, and she LOVES vacationing in Israel. She tries to go ever year.

When you put a wealthy nation right next to a third world hellhole, bad things will happen, especially when the wealthy nation goes out of its way to make the third world hellhole even worse by encroaching on its land and cutting off resources.

Israelis made what Israel is today.

Palestinians have made "Palestine" into what it is today.

 

[mheslep]

To my knowledge, Israelis aren't hiding in their basements from rocket attacks...

Since the subject of rocket attacks on Israel stemming from Gaza can be readily found, has been discussed at length in other threads and brought to your attention in this one, the more accurate description is 'due to your wilful disinterest, you are unaware that ...'

“If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I’m going to do everything in my power to stop that,” Mr. Obama said in July. “And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/27/AR2008122700962.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/28/world/middleeast/28diplo.html

 

[tiny-tim]

Sderot

To my knowledge, Israelis aren't hiding in their basements from rocket attacks.

For 8 years they were, in the city of Sderot. Just google "Sderot" to find out what was happening for 8 years until the Gaza war … every resident had to be within 15 seconds of a "safe room", night and day.

Many "safe rooms" are in basements, though (I think) the majority of houses do not have basements, and so they have to be on the ground floor.

A 15 seconds rule makes bedrooms and bathrooms on upper floors totally unusable.

Many families slept crowded together in their "safe room" every night.

(whether you call this "cowering" is a matter of opinion … that they were there every night isn't ).

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/weather/world/middle_east/article2347909.ece" (too long to quote from) … if you don't trust The Times, do a site-specific google search for "Sderot" on your favourite independent news site.

And here's a quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sderot" …

Sderot, less than a mile from Gaza, has been the target of Palestinian rocket attacks that have killed 13 residents, wounded hundreds, caused millions of dollars in damage, disrupted daily life and wreaked havoc on the local economy.
According to MSNBC, "nearly everyone [has been] traumatized by the frequent sound of air-raid sirens and explosions of incoming projectiles". All local schools have been fortified.
From mid-June 2007 to mid-February 2008, 771 rockets and 857 mortar bombs were fired at Sderot and the western Negev, an average of three or four each a day.
…
Citizens only have 15 seconds to reach shelter after the sounding of the alarm.​

 

[TubbaBlubba]

This is also predictable in this kind of thread: some dozen posts by TubbaBlubba, most loaded with some assertion of fact or other with no reference, ending with a call for sources from others.

I found a specific statement highly dubious. If someone was discussing World War Two and someone suddenly said that the jews came to the concentration camps out of free will, then of course people would be skeptical towards that and ask where the hell he got that from. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, as they say. Most of the things I've said in this thread are obviously opinionated views of the facts (and you're free to think what you want of them), but I don't think any of them are quite that outrageous.

 

[mheslep]

Most of the things I've said in this thread are obviously opinionated views of the facts (and you're free to think what you want of them), but I don't think any of them are quite that outrageous.

I disagree. Most all of these are assertions of fact, many of them absolute, with no reference in sight.

have been attempting to ship some food, tents, concrete and other supplies to gaza via a completely peaceful convoy.

The problem in all of this is that the west tends to be RIDICULOUSLY apologetic to Israel to a point of sheer absurdity, in particular the US.

Granted this one is opinion, but Europe constantly attacks Israel, and the last bit about the US given the recent stream of US condemnations of Israel - is way off (sources if you like).

They boarded their ships with heavily armed soldiers. They had absolutely no right to do that.

Yeah, according to the most recent news report I heard, they boarded the ship on international water without permission. That is an act of war. Israel were clearly the aggressors here.

The boat wasn't armed, they just used improvised weaponry which kind of makes sense when you're attacked. Regardless of how they reacted to the Israelis, the idea was to move supplies to Gaza and/or show how absurdly Israel acts.

... you squeeze people together on a small strip, give them nowhere near enough resources, and intentionally cut off all resource paths.

etc

 

[TubbaBlubba]

How do you want me to respond? I could take each point, elaborate and reflect, or I could just appreciate that you've made your point. Preferences either way? I don't mind going back, but we've kind of moved past most of those points, and I suspect you'd just counter-post, ending it all in a drawn-out semantics showdown.

 

[mheslep]

How do you want me to respond? I could take each point, elaborate and reflect, or I could just appreciate that you've made your point. Preferences either way?

Well forget about the past (if you like). All I would suggest, to the extent that you agree with the above points, is that in the future consider providing some specific references for the phrases that appear as assertions/absolute statements. As an example, Tiny Tim above raised the level of discussion of the entire thread with the blockade references, even if we disagree with the implications and compliance in this event with blockade rules.

As to opinions, have at it.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I see. Most of what I've posted is basically what I've gathered from news reports and the like (We have independant government-funded news in Sweden as well; much like BBC), including the conceptions of the actual boarding. I do admit that I did perhaps not appreciate the sensitivity of the subject enough.As for what I understand the fact that it was on international waters was a really big deal. But I find it very dubious that the activists were actually violent terrorists (as I said, Israel are very, VERY cautious when it comes to dealing with terrorists) or anything of that sorts; At least the eleven Swedes that were on it were mostly intellectuals (among other, Henning Mankell, one of the most popular authors in Sweden, you might know him as the creator of Wallander). One of the women (A German, I believe) had her one-year-old baby with her (Yeah, kind of irresponsible, I agree), and said that while they of course expected confrontation, they would have imagined that they would prey their ship, not board it.

 

[arildno]

One of the women (A German, I believe) had her one-year-old baby with her (Yeah, kind of irresponsible, I agree), and said that while they of course expected confrontation, they would have imagined that they would prey their ship, not board it.

1. She was a Turk.

2. She is lying through her teeth.
HERE is how the "activists" thought of, and chanted about, the action prior to the confrontation:


And here is one jubilant theologian reflecting on martyrdom, and armed, muslim fleets:
http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2490.htm

 

[TubbaBlubba]

1. She was a Turk.

2. She is lying through her teeth.
HERE is how the "activists" thought of, and chanted about, the action prior to the confrontation:


And here is one jubilant theologian reflecting on martyrdom, and armed, muslim fleets:

Regarding the first video, I don't speak Arabic, and the first comment is this:
#
Jallabadda99999
1 timme sedan 4
these translations are not even close to accurate, they're almost entirely false

So I wouldn't trust that one too much. I generally don't consider Youtube comments very reputable, but I'm completely unfamiliar with where the video comes from.

The second one appears to be the same. Did you mispaste?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10208027.stm - What the people that were allowed to go home said. I can't speak for its accuracy, though, and it may obviously be skewed due to the inherent bias (as if Israel's reports aren't)

 

[arildno]

Regarding the first video, I don't speak Arabic, and the first comment is this:
#
Jallabadda99999
1 timme sedan 4
these translations are not even close to accurate, they're almost entirely false

So I wouldn't trust that one too much. I generally don't consider Youtube comments very reputable, but I'm completely unfamiliar with where the video comes from.

The second one appears to be the same. Did you mispaste?

Nonsense.

These are from the MEMRI instute, that a liar says they are falsely translated, is just his personal, sick way of fighting jihad.

 

[mheslep]

...
...
And here is one jubilant theologian reflecting on martyrdom, and armed, muslim fleets:

Same link?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Doesn't exactly look like they're "protecting the blockade" here...

 

[arildno]

Same link?

Oops, the other should be:


http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2490.htm

 

[estro]

I'm sure that the Palestinian civilians would be more than willing to put down their rocks if the Israeli military would put down their tanks, aircraft, and phosphorous munitions.
Just a thought.

They day we (I'm Israeli Jew) put our tanks, aircrafts etc down will be our last day upon earth...
I can't understand how one can be so blind to confuse radical blood thirsty muslim terrorists with peace activists...

Maybe one is so blind, because one's mind and heart is full with unfounded hatred just like those "peace activists"...

 

[TubbaBlubba]

They day we (I'm Israeli Jew) put our tanks, aircrafts etc down will be our last day upon earth...
I can't understand how one can be so blind to confuse radical blood thirsty muslim terrorists with peace activists...

Maybe one is so blind, because one's mind and heart is full with unfounded hatred just like those "peace activists"...

I have no hatred for Israel, the Israeli people, the Jewish people or the practitioners of Judaism. I do, and will, however, condemn the repeated actions of the Israel government, and militaries, who are the ones that create the opportunities for these extremists you speak of. Why do you think Hamas is gaining power among the Palestinians? Because they are desperate.

As for that theologian... Well, looking at the reactions from the reporter, I think he was a bit more zealous than they would have expected. However, note what he said by the end, "We hope that they will both reach the shores, and become martyrs." Are you sure we aren't misinterpreting martyr here (Might also be something lost in translation)? Martyr doesn't neccesarily mean you get killed in the name of Allah, you know. In a way, the 599 unharmed people from the convoys still in Israel are martyrs, even if they're still alive and well. They did (presumably) choose to stay of their free will.

 

[arildno]

I'm sure that the Palestinian civilians would be more than willing to put down their rocks if the Israeli military would put down their tanks, aircraft, and phosphorous munitions.

Just a thought.

Yeah, then the Palestinians can live beatifically, and honour-murder their errant girls and gayboys at their own pleasure.

What a wonderful culture Palestinians have to boast of!

 

[arildno]

I have no hatred for Israel, the Israeli people, the Jewish people or the practitioners of Judaism. I do, and will, however, condemn the repeated actions of the Israel government, and militaries, who are the ones that create the opportunities for these extremists you speak of. Why do you think Hamas is gaining power among the Palestinians? Because they are desperate.

As for that theologian... Well, looking at the reactions from the reporter, I think he was a bit more zealous than they would have expected. However, note what he said by the end, "We hope that they will both reach the shores, and become martyrs." Are you sure we aren't misinterpreting martyr here (Might also be something lost in translation)? Martyr doesn't neccesarily mean you get killed in the name of Allah, you know. In a way, the 599 unharmed people from the convoys still in Israel are martyrs, even if they're still alive and well. They did (presumably) choose to stay of their free will.

No, he wanted their blood to be spilled in the conquest of Al-Quds, i.e, Jerusalem (by the Al-Aqsa mosque).

A quite straightforward indication of his dream about annihilating Israel.

He is an evil death cultist, and nothing else.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

No, he wanted their blood to be spilled in the conquest of Al-Quds, i.e, Jerusalem (by the Al-Aqsa mosque).

A quite straightforward indication of his dream about annihilating Israel.

He is an evil death cultist, and nothing else.

He's also a crazy old guy. Look at how the reporter interrupted him when he started saying "jews". I don't think he would be the perfect image of these convoy's intention.So if the convoy inhabitants were terrorists, what about the Swedes on them? One of them is a prominent politician in the Environmentalist party of Sweden, another as I said a prominent author, one was a physician, etc. Not exactly the people you'd expect on a terrorist raid. Were they perhaps "fooled along" by the sly schemes of some terrorists?

 

[estro]

I have no hatred for Israel, the Israeli people, the Jewish people or the practitioners of Judaism. I do, and will, however, condemn the repeated actions of the Israel government, and militaries, who are the ones that create the opportunities for these extremists you speak of. Why do you think Hamas is gaining power among the Palestinians? Because they are desperate.
...

It is very easy to wear pink-glasses and condemn our "repeated" actions when you live you life far away of our situation.
I'm mobilized IDF soldier, and I can ensure you from "inside" that Palestinian people afraid more of their "Hamas Government" then of Israeli solders...

 

[magpies]

No they probably got kidnapped it's good thing israel saved them from their beheadings.

 

[estro]

He's also a crazy old guy. Look at how the reporter interrupted him when he started saying "jews". I don't think he would be the perfect image of these convoy's intention.


So if the convoy inhabitants were terrorists, what about the Swedes on them? One of them is a prominent politician in the Environmentalist party of Sweden, another as I said a prominent author, one was a physician, etc. Not exactly the people you'd expect on a terrorist raid. Were they perhaps "fooled along" by the sly schemes of some terrorists?

Have you seen the video? Or maybe you're blind?

 

[mheslep]

Regarding scepticism that noted professionals such as physicians can be caught up on Jihadist movements: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_al-Zawahiri" is a highly intelligent physician, a surgeon no less.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Have you seen the video? Or maybe you're blind?

No reason to be sarcastic here. I'm trying to piece this together for myself.

mhslep: There were 11 Swedes to there. From what I can see, only three of them are of Arabic origin. Two of them were jews (One of the Jewish guys is a physician who has treated my sister, actually).

Looking at a live press conference headed by the aforementioned politician in Sweden

 

[arildno]

So if the convoy inhabitants were terrorists, what about the Swedes on them? One of them is a prominent politician in the Environmentalist party of Sweden, another as I said a prominent author, one was a physician, etc. Not exactly the people you'd expect on a terrorist raid.

Why not?

The videos show unequivocally that
a) The "peace" activists were chanting battle songs
b) Had no qualms of attacking the Israelis.

Coming from a country where the leader of the Socialist Left, while being Minister of Finance, happily went along in a march where others quite clearly shouted "Death to the Joos!", and has never publicly regretted her participation, I have no illusions about the politicians of our neigbouring country.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Why not?

The videos show unequivocally that
a) The "peace" activists were chanting battle songs
b) Had no qualms of attacking the Israelis.

Coming from a country where the leader of the Socialist Left, while being Minister of Finance, happily went along in a march where others quite clearly shouted "Death to the Joos!", and has never publicly regretted her participation, I have no illusions about the politicians of our neigbouring country.

And the two jews? They were suicidal, I suppose? Maybe their hatred for their kinsmen fueled it?

 

[arildno]

As for the author Henning Mankell, he is an old Maoist, and has never regretted his support for one of the most evil regimes that has ever existed in modern history.

 

[arildno]

And the two jews? They were suicidal, I suppose? Maybe their hatred for their kinsmen fueled it?

Probably.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

He's become less extreme these days. But yes, he's a member of what you'd call the "intellectual left" in Sweden. Perhaps somewhat odd in certain views, but not violent extremists.

As opposed to the slightly-less-intellectual left, consisting of antifascist and other happy brick throwers.


No, I find it hard to see this as some sort of violent death convoy. Perhaps time will clear things up.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

..And who killed Yitzak Rabin?

A right-wing radical.

These are nearly all left-wingers, in case it wasn't clear enough. The Israel-Palestina conflict is one of the by far most prominent issues the left focuses on. (that is, the socialist party and the like, not the measly left we have in our parliament)

 

[Geigerclick]

A right-wing radical.

These are nearly all left-wingers, in case it wasn't clear enough. The Israel-Palestina conflict is one of the by far most prominent issues the left focuses on. (that is, the socialist party and the like, not the measly left we have in our parliament)

My point is that being Jewish doesn't somehow immunize you from being on the extreme right, OR THE LEFT.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Well, personally, I've got far too conflicting views of this at the moment. I think I'll have to step back and see what it looks like once things clear up.

Geiger: I thought your point was that the people on the boat were all muslim extremists? Doesn't seem to be the case to me, and this is why it confuses me.

 

[estro]

And the two jews? They were suicidal, I suppose? Maybe their hatred for their kinsmen fueled it?

We (Israel) have a problem, out nature is too soft and peaceful =)
But some take it to the unhealthy extreme bordering with self destruction.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I would also please see people refrain from using statements like "evil", "death cult" or the like. It only serves to demonize and dehumanize people, and is meaningless in an actual discussion.

 

[EnumaElish]

Oops, the other should be:


http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2490.htm

By posting these you're making the point that having access to all this information beforehand did not stop IDF from dangling a momentarily defenseless soldier from a helicopter into what they claim to be a lynch mob.

At that point the singular soldier is in mortal peril and has no option but use deadly force against the mob.

Something doesn't add up.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

By posting these you're making the point that having access to all this information beforehand did not stop IDF from dangling a momentarily defenseless soldier from a helicopter into what they claim to be a lynch mob.

At that point the singular soldier is in mortal peril and has no option but use deadly force against the mob.

Something doesn't add up.

Yes, this is another thing that confuses me. As I mentioned before, Israel's practice is surrounding suspected terrorist vessels with naval force, using torpedoes (or similar weaponry) to immobilize them, pouring a special oil on the ship making it impossible to keep your balance on, and THEN boarding the ship with troops wearing special shoes allowing them to walk on the surface.

 

[arildno]

By posting these you're making the point that having access to all this information beforehand did not stop IDF from dangling a momentarily defenseless soldier from a helicopter into what they claim to be a lynch mob.

At that point the singular soldier is in mortal peril and has no option but use deadly force against the mob.

Something doesn't add up.

Hmm..and why should IDF ASSUME that everyone on those boats wouldn't have their courage faltering once they had a real face-down?

1 out of 6 boat-crews were bent upon this type of altercation.

The other boats responded responsibly.