News What were the consequences of Israel's attack on the Gaza Aid Flotilla?

[arildno]

And the two jews? They were suicidal, I suppose? Maybe their hatred for their kinsmen fueled it?

Probably.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

He's become less extreme these days. But yes, he's a member of what you'd call the "intellectual left" in Sweden. Perhaps somewhat odd in certain views, but not violent extremists.

As opposed to the slightly-less-intellectual left, consisting of antifascist and other happy brick throwers.


No, I find it hard to see this as some sort of violent death convoy. Perhaps time will clear things up.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

..And who killed Yitzak Rabin?

A right-wing radical.

These are nearly all left-wingers, in case it wasn't clear enough. The Israel-Palestina conflict is one of the by far most prominent issues the left focuses on. (that is, the socialist party and the like, not the measly left we have in our parliament)

 

[Geigerclick]

A right-wing radical.

These are nearly all left-wingers, in case it wasn't clear enough. The Israel-Palestina conflict is one of the by far most prominent issues the left focuses on. (that is, the socialist party and the like, not the measly left we have in our parliament)

My point is that being Jewish doesn't somehow immunize you from being on the extreme right, OR THE LEFT.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Well, personally, I've got far too conflicting views of this at the moment. I think I'll have to step back and see what it looks like once things clear up.

Geiger: I thought your point was that the people on the boat were all muslim extremists? Doesn't seem to be the case to me, and this is why it confuses me.

 

[estro]

And the two jews? They were suicidal, I suppose? Maybe their hatred for their kinsmen fueled it?

We (Israel) have a problem, out nature is too soft and peaceful =)
But some take it to the unhealthy extreme bordering with self destruction.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I would also please see people refrain from using statements like "evil", "death cult" or the like. It only serves to demonize and dehumanize people, and is meaningless in an actual discussion.

 

[EnumaElish]

Oops, the other should be:


http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2490.htm

By posting these you're making the point that having access to all this information beforehand did not stop IDF from dangling a momentarily defenseless soldier from a helicopter into what they claim to be a lynch mob.

At that point the singular soldier is in mortal peril and has no option but use deadly force against the mob.

Something doesn't add up.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

By posting these you're making the point that having access to all this information beforehand did not stop IDF from dangling a momentarily defenseless soldier from a helicopter into what they claim to be a lynch mob.

At that point the singular soldier is in mortal peril and has no option but use deadly force against the mob.

Something doesn't add up.

Yes, this is another thing that confuses me. As I mentioned before, Israel's practice is surrounding suspected terrorist vessels with naval force, using torpedoes (or similar weaponry) to immobilize them, pouring a special oil on the ship making it impossible to keep your balance on, and THEN boarding the ship with troops wearing special shoes allowing them to walk on the surface.

 

[arildno]

By posting these you're making the point that having access to all this information beforehand did not stop IDF from dangling a momentarily defenseless soldier from a helicopter into what they claim to be a lynch mob.

At that point the singular soldier is in mortal peril and has no option but use deadly force against the mob.

Something doesn't add up.

Hmm..and why should IDF ASSUME that everyone on those boats wouldn't have their courage faltering once they had a real face-down?

1 out of 6 boat-crews were bent upon this type of altercation.

The other boats responded responsibly.

 

[arildno]

I would also please see people refrain from using statements like "evil", "death cult" or the like. It only serves to demonize and dehumanize people, and is meaningless in an actual discussion.

The man is self-demonizing, and doesn't need my assistance in de-humanizing himself.

He has already mutilated himself into this horror, years ago.

And no, it never hurts to actually know your..enemy.

It is, in fact, crucial.

 

[tiny-tim]

Doesn't exactly look like they're "protecting the blockade" here...

(referring to a map showing the ships opposite Tel Aviv, but three times the distance of israeli territorial waters)

You asked this question before, despite the fact that I had specifically dealt with it in my post which you claimed to be reading …

EDIT: Hold on, reading through tiny-tim's post. Also doing some further research before commenting.

Interesting. Would "Breaching a blockade" constitute any vessel reaching harbor?

… and I replied by quoting from that post …

"Breaching or attempting to breach a blockade" includes heading towards the blockade area with the declared intention of entering it …

which certainly includes these ships.

This was from

A ship is "attempting to breach a blockade" even before it reaches the declared blockade area … see for example paragraph 7.7.4 of the U.S.A.'s "[URL
Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations[/URL] …

7.7.4. … Attempted breach of blockade occurs from the time a vessel or
aircraft leaves a port or airfield with the intention of evading the blockade …

I could also have repeated that Paragraph 146 of the San Remo document specifically allows capture of ships in international waters (ie outside "neutral waters", which means waters of a neutral country) …

146. Neutral merchant vessels are subject to capture outside neutral waters if they …
(f) are breaching or attempting to breach a blockade.

Since the occupants of all the ships had publicly declared their intention of breaching the blockade, then (since after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refused to stop) international law entitled the Israelis to capture it anywhere along its route.​

To use your words, it certainly does 'look like the Israelis were "protecting the blockade".'

Please don't raise this issue again as if it hasn't been answered.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I was referring to the fact that they were, at least from my perspective, very far from the blockade. But maybe that's standard; Naval warfare is as you have noticed not one of my areas of expertise.

 

[Count Iblis]

The last time someone tried to blockade Israel we got the Six Day war. A Turkish blockade would certainly trigger total war between the two countries. A country would have to be insane to invite that kind of violence because of an incident like this

Yes, but then other actions are possible. NATO has already condemned the Israeli action, so you can well imagine NATO supplying Gaza with goods that Israel won't currently let through.

 

[Count Iblis]

We (the USA) intercept ships en route to Iran and NK, and from them under this same law. Note the lack of international outrage. The issue here is poor PR on the behalf of the Israelis, and a successful stunt on the other side. The condemnation of Israel has become so trite and tired at this point that it is hard to take it seriously anymore.

Lets make this simple, this is the international equivalent of tossing puppies under a bus, catching it on camera, and generating outrage against the bus-driver.

No ships are intercepted in international waters by the US except for Somali pirate ships. Ships from North Korea have been inspected when they wanted to re-supply. Intercepting an Iranian or North Korean ship in international waters would likely trigger a war that no one wants.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I'm listening to the press conference by the aforementioned politician.

According to him;
- The blockade is illegal (He quoted Amnesty on this).
- The boarding was illegal (I can't comment on from what stance he makes this view).
- The Israeli army tried to (apparently unsuccessfully) seize their passports.
- This was intended as nothing but non-violent resistance, and they had received training in non-violence before departure
- They had not made any sort of violent resistance (on his boat) and they had entered via hooks
- He claimed to have read several Israeli newspapers online condemning these actions.

So what I wonder is, what happened on the boat that did apparently make violent resistance?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

We have caused such ships to turn back, or used proxies (such as Israel!) to board them. We nearly caused a nuclear holocaust because of a blockade once, remember? Something to do with Cuba...

Come on, let's be intellectually honest here.

I wouldn't call the US much of an example in terms of military action, anyway...

According to him... so... who cares? According to the IDF this boat was a threat to national security, and according to IHH this was a group of peace-loving neo-hippies. Doubtless both are not correct.

I'm not going to make a statement on the validity of his claims, I am merely quoting a retelling of a first-hand experience. I thought it might be of interest to SOMEONE?

 

[tiny-tim]

… Naval warfare is as you have noticed not one of my areas of expertise.

Nor mine … I'm a freshwater fish.

But it doesn't stop either you or me from looking it up on google instead of just making up international law the way we would like it to be.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Nor mine … I'm a freshwater fish.

But it doesn't stop either you or me from looking it up on google instead of just making up international law the way we would like it to be.

I was basing my stance on the matter from what I had heard from several sources (mainly news stations here in Sweden) which all implied or outright stated that the boarding is illegal. Why this conflicts with the apparent law is not something I can judge.

Geiger: Now, now, now, the US "saving" Europe from the Nazis, eh? That's something for an entirely different topic...

 

[mheslep]

What if the group at hand was the Klu Klux Klan, or the Jim Jones mass suicide (or mass homicide) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown" , Khaibar, oh Jews!") and twisted manipulation of a major religion and that of the Klan's, and that there's little difference between the Jihadist's cult-like embrace of death and that of Jim Jone's followers.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Save or not, our military efficacy at that time, and previously was high. For the prior statement you can and SHOULD do what the bright fish suggests (freshwater, I LOL'ed at that) and do the research so that you no longer base your views on the statements of politicians. The laws are available to peruse, and they are not terribly ambiguous.

Base my views on the statements of politicians? No, several independent news sources. Don't make a straw man of me.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

What I wonder is where the boat that ended up doing violent resistance happens to fit into this. From what I can see, at least MOST of them went there with non-violence in mind. Did the wrong people end up on the same boat, inciting each other? Was it planned before that that boat would make violent resistance? It doesn't add up to me.

 

[arildno]

As for the so-called humanitarian plight of the Palestinians, it is largely...non-existent.

IF conditions had been so horrible there, this should show itself on a number of statistics.

I will use data from IndexMundi here, W meaning "West Bank", "G" Gaza, "S": Syria, E: Egypt, C: China, T: Turkey.

1. Infant mortality rate (per 1000):
W: 15.96, G:18.35, S: 16.69 , T: 25.78, E: 27.26, C: 20.25

2. Life expectancy at birth (in years):
W: 74.54, G: 73.42, S: 74.22, T: 71.96, E: 72.12, C: 73.47

3. Death rate (per 1000)
W: 3.66, G: 3.44, S: 3.72, T: 6.1, E: 4.88, C: 7.06

All numbers should be 2009-estimates.
http://www.indexmundi.com

The low death rates are consistent with that in W&G, most people are young, AND that the vast majority of persons there die of old age, rather than from anything else.

(Norway has an aging population, with a 9.29 death rate, and 3.58 infant mortality rate.)

 

[mheslep]

No ships are intercepted in international waters by the US except for Somali pirate ships. Ships from North Korea have been inspected when they wanted to re-supply. Intercepting an Iranian or North Korean ship in international waters would likely trigger a war that no one wants.

I believe you are mistaken. I believe the US has stopped and sunk NK ships in international waters bound for Iran, though I can't reference cases.

 

[mheslep]

Heh, of course if the KKK had done one thousandth of what Jihadis had in the Middle East,

I would not be so fast to minimize the KKK over the length US history. It claimed maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#Urbanization" of the US population in the 1920s, including many nationally prominent politicians.

 

[tiny-tim]

the Stockholm defence

I was basing my stance on the matter from what I had heard from several sources (mainly news stations here in Sweden) which all implied or outright stated that the boarding is illegal.

Since when were Swedish news stations unbiased?

And since when were Swedish news presenters experts on international law?

And they're hardly independent …

i] news stations tend to copy each other

ii] when they're not doing that, they tend to copy from the same sources.

Anyway, are you seriously pleading a new "Stockholm defence" …

"I was relying on Swedish news stations"?​

 

[estro]

Or what if the jews had been nazis? I think that there's a striking resemblance between the conditions they force the Gaza people to live in and the work camps of Nazi Germany.
...

Some people just have no idea what they talking about...
It seems to me you more interested in controversy rather then debate...

 

[estro]

...
Lets make this simple, this is the international equivalent of tossing puppies under a bus, catching it on camera, and generating outrage against the bus-driver.

This one converges to reality very fast...

 

[tiny-tim]

the Stockholm defence

I think that there's a striking resemblance between the conditions they force the Gaza people to live in and the work camps of Nazi Germany.

Did you get that from Swedish news stations also?

Those Swedish news stations really are racist, then …

there's no comparison between Gaza and Nazi "work camps". ​

 

[arildno]

Did you get that from Swedish news stations also?

Those Swedish news stations really are racist, then …

there's no comparison between Gaza and Nazi "work camps". ​

Especially when the unemployment rate there was...40% in 2009..(in my previous post, I have some other stats from indexmundi)