News What were the consequences of Israel's attack on the Gaza Aid Flotilla?

[zomgwtf]

We're talking about the action of states here, however, not individuals. I can't say I know what it is like to have a friend killed, but I do think that having experienced that would give me a biased view against whoever killed him, regardless of their intentions or reasons to.

Yeah, and one nation state wants to take out another nation state, basically by killing and invading the nation state constantly.

So the other nation state defends itself... simple.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Yeah, and one nation state wants to take out another nation state, basically by killing and invading the nation state constantly.

So the other nation state defends itself... simple.

Israel won the war against... Well, most of the Middle East (due to superior weaponry because of their support from the west). They're now conducting terrorism against the people in Gaza. I have no idea what they even want to ACHIEVE with that.

I know Egypt closed the border too, but they don't seem to speak much of the matter.

 

[Werg22]

Yeah, and one nation state wants to take out another nation state, basically by killing and invading the nation state constantly.

So the other nation state defends itself... simple.

You forgot to mention the part that one state is constantly building illegal settlements and destroying homes of the other. Don't spin this as a simple matter of a nation defending itself from aggression.

 

[estro]

Israel won the war against... Well, most of the Middle East (due to superior weaponry because of their support from the west). They're now conducting terrorism against the people in Gaza. I have no idea what they even want to ACHIEVE with that.

I know Egypt closed the border too, but they don't seem to speak much of the matter.

The independence war wasn't won by "superior weaponry", but by the sense of rightfulness for self existence.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

The independence war wasn't won by "superior weaponry", but by the sense of rightfulness for self existence.

Uh-huh, uh-huh. Certainly not because Israel is one of the most powerful (the most powerful, even?) military superpower in the world and has the arguably best intelligence network in the world.

 

[estro]

Uh-huh, uh-huh. Certainly not because Israel is one of the most powerful (the most powerful, even?) military superpower in the world and has the arguably best intelligence network in the world.

Are you sure you know what you are talking about?! The independence war took place when Israel was ONE DAY old. Back then IDF was improvisation.
But thank you for complimenting my nation=)

 

[magpies]

No it's not that its just that you are young and opinonated and it makes us older folks uneasy.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Are you sure you know what you are talking about?! The independence war took place when Israel was ONE DAY old. Back then IDF was improvisation.
But thank you for complimenting my nation=)

And they sure didn't receive any support from the US or the UN.

I like Israel in many ways, it's an amazing nation as far as science goes, and I'm sure it has a lot of interesting cultural aspects.

I however, condemn many of the military actions of it, and as I have said before, I will stand by my notion that the treatment of the Gaza strip is nothing less than state terrorism.

(Why are people fighting over it, anyway? Isn't it mostly... rocky desert?)

 

[arildno]

(Why are people fighting over it, anyway? Isn't it mostly... rocky desert?)

Some made that desert bloom, others are culturally trained to make it...BOOM!

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I just wish that a god of either side would appear and say "Hey, let's go find some nicer place, this place is boring."

 

[estro]

And they sure didn't receive any support from the US or the UN.

I like Israel in many ways, it's an amazing nation as far as science goes, and I'm sure it has a lot of interesting cultural aspects.

I however, condemn many of the military actions of it, and as I have said before, I will stand by my notion that the treatment of the Gaza strip is nothing less than state terrorism.

(Why are people fighting over it, anyway? Isn't it mostly... rocky desert?)

Israel don't fight over the Gaza strip, we don't have any soldiers there by now more then 4 years I think...

 

[arildno]

I just wish that a god of either side would appear and say "Hey, let's go find some nicer place, this place is boring."

I just wish people like you stopped day-dreaming, and started basing your endless assertion upon FACTS and not fancy

 

[estro]

...
(Why are people fighting over it, anyway? Isn't it mostly... rocky desert?)

Some say honey and milk flowing all over the rocks...=)

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Israel don't fight over the Gaza strip, we don't have any soldiers there by now more then 4 years I think...

Uh... ?

On January 3, 2009, the Israeli ground invasion began.[70][71] Human rights groups and aid organisations have accused Hamas and Israel of war crimes.[72][73][74] An estimated 1,166-1,417 Palestinians and 13 Israelis died in the conflict.[75][76][77] The conflict came to an end on 18 January after first Israel and then Hamas announced unilateral ceasefires.[78][79] On 21 January, Israel completed its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.[80] On March 2, it was reported that international donors had pledged $4.5 billion in aid for the Palestinians, mainly for rebuilding Gaza after Israel's offensive.[81]

arildno: I know, I'm considering euthanasia. People like me really ruin this world.

 

[Werg22]

Getting back to the topic: a 19 year old American citizen was killed in the debacle. Reportedly, they were shot 4 times in the head, and once in the chest, at close range. This definitely smells like foul play on the part of IDF. Source:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/06/03/2010-06-03_american_citizen_among_dead_in_botched_israeli_raid_of_gazabound_flotilla.html"

 

[mheslep]

I will double check these facts later. It would appear that plenty of supplies are coming via Israel already.



http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Israel+actions+self+defence/3109496/story.html

Figures in that range are commonly cited in the press. That amount demonstrates a regular and ongoing flow, but I don't know that 15,000 tons per week into Gaza qualifies as plenty. By way of comparison, during the Berlin blockade, Berlin contained 2.8 million people (vs Gaza's 1.5 million today) but the airlift transported 13,000 tons per day to meet the needs of the populace.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Figures in that range are commonly cited in the press. That amount demonstrates a regular and ongoing flow, but I don't know that 15,000 tons per week into Gaza qualifies as plenty. By way of comparison, during the Berlin blockade, Berlin contained 2.8 million people (vs Gaza's 1.5 million today) but the airlift transported 13,000 tons per day to meet the needs of the populace.

According to the UN, Gaza would need a minimum of four times that amount, I believe.

I'm also curious about the quality of the supplies.

 

[estro]

Uh... ?

On January 3, 2009, the Israeli ground invasion began.[70][71] Human rights groups and aid organisations have accused Hamas and Israel of war crimes.[72][73][74] An estimated 1,166-1,417 Palestinians and 13 Israelis died in the conflict.[75][76][77] The conflict came to an end on 18 January after first Israel and then Hamas announced unilateral ceasefires.[78][79] On 21 January, Israel completed its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.[80] On March 2, it was reported that international donors had pledged $4.5 billion in aid for the Palestinians, mainly for rebuilding Gaza after Israel's offensive.[81]

arildno: I know, I'm considering euthanasia. People like me really ruin this world.

I meant IDF soldiers are not "occupying" Gaza Strip on permanent basis.
Operation Defensive Shield was meant to stop rocket launching from Gaza on Israeli civilians.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I meant IDF soldiers are not "occupying" Gaza Strip on permanent basis.
Operation Defensive Shield was meant to stop rocket launching from Gaza on Israeli civilians.

Ah, I see.

Honestly, it irks me somewhat to see the casualty numbers...

Looking for a source on the UN statement regarding supplies, by the way. I know I've read it on a newspage at least.

 

[OmCheeto]

I know Egypt closed the border too, but they don't seem to speak much of the matter.

I can't remember where I posted something regarding the borders in the middle east, so I'll have to regurgitate this from my somewhat poor memory.

I often hear that people are P.O.'d about former British colonialism, and how the borders they drew cause many of the problems in the region. My question was; "Why don't they do away with, or change the borders?"

The British have been gone for decades. The borders don't make any sense to me. They probably don't make sense to anyone really, except for maybe a handful of lazy mapmakers.

Ah ha! It might have been related to the map of the region from 1917 that hangs on my wall.

I think I also mentioned something regarding the geographic differences of the Gaza-Israel-Egypt border area as seen from google earth:

Israel: looks like farm land
Gaza: looks like one big metropolitan area
Egypt: looks like empty desert

 

[estro]

Getting back to the topic: a 19 year old American citizen was killed in the debacle. Reportedly, they were shot 4 times in the head, and once in the chest, at close range. This definitely smells like foul play on the part of IDF. Source:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/06/03/2010-06-03_american_citizen_among_dead_in_botched_israeli_raid_of_gazabound_flotilla.html"

When you repel blood thirsty mob many unpleasing things can happen.
Peace loving 19 years old girls SHOULDN'T be cruising on over intensive love cruises...

 

[zomgwtf]

When you repel blood thirsty mob many unpleasing things can happen.

I don't think this is the place to spread propaganda like that.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

There!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10200351.stm

"Israel says it allows about 15,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid into Gaza every week, but the UN says this is less than a quarter of what is needed. "

I believe the UN also deemed that some 70-80% (the poorer lot) of the Gaza population was "food insecure", let's see if I can dig that up.

 

[estro]

I don't think this is the place to spread propaganda like that.

I didn't mean any propaganda.
But from my personal experience in military operations all happens very fast and under massive pressure add to this fear and you'll get recipe for mistakes...

But we should remember the boy from Ramallah who's death was put on IDF hands.
INTERNATIONAL investigation later revealed the boy died by Palestinian bullet...

 

[jreelawg]

I respect Israel's security concerns, but I view some of their reactions have been a bit extreme: demoralization, shock and awe bombing campaigns etc.

But how can anyone honestly say that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Just google gaza on Google images. The argument that they deserve it because of the religion or culture they belong to is a separate issue.

 

[mheslep]

Uh... ?

He surely is not referring to the events of last January, but instead the fact that Israel peacefully left Gaza of its own accord several years ago, forcing Jewish settlers to leave in some cases. If it were not for the daily rocket attacks on Israel stemming from Gaza, the January (re)invasion would have never happened.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/9A265F2A909E9A1D8525772E004FC34B

"People are scraping by on basics and rely on humanitarian aid to fill the gaps. An average household spends 56 cents of every US dollar on food. The average food insecure household has between 6 to 9 people relying on one breadwinner.8""Food Security in the Gaza Strip
Food security exists when all people, at all times, have physical, social and economic access to sufficient, safe and nutritious food which meets their dietary needs and food preferences for an active and healthy life. Food insecurity exists when people do not have adequate physical, social or economic access to food as defined above33 61% of people in the Gaza Strip are considered to be food insecure and are reliant on food assistance from humanitarian agencies for their health and well being. An additional 16.2% are considered vulnerable to food insecurity. Of those food insecure, 65% are children under 18 years.34 For these children, long-term food insecurity is linked to rising levels of acute malnutrition and stunted growth. In addition, health conditions such as watery diarrhea and iron deficiency anemia result from the ongoing lack of access to clean water and balanced diet. In February 2009, the level of anemia in babies (9-12 months) was as high as 65.5%.35"

mheslep: Fair enough.
So... If I'm not skewing the statistics, 61% relies on food supplies which are deemed enough for 15%?

 

[Office_Shredder]

Figures in that range are commonly cited in the press. That amount demonstrates a regular and ongoing flow, but I don't know that 15,000 tons per week into Gaza qualifies as plenty. By way of comparison, during the Berlin blockade, Berlin contained 2.8 million people (vs Gaza's 1.5 million today) but the airlift transported 13,000 tons per day to meet the needs of the populace.

But we had to airlift all of Berlin's food to them. It's been discussed earlier in this thread about how Gaza has an abundance of food already

 

[TubbaBlubba]

It's been discussed earlier in this thread about how Gaza has an abundance of food already

Well, the UN disagrees as seen above.

 

[mheslep]

According to the UN, Gaza would need a minimum of four times that amount, I believe.

I can find no such reference from the UN. Do you have some idea of what UN organization made the claim?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I can find no such reference from the UN. Do you have some idea of what UN organization made the claim?

I don't know who specifically made the claim, as I posted above I got the claim from BBC:

There!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10200351.stm

"Israel says it allows about 15,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid into Gaza every week, but the UN says this is less than a quarter of what is needed."

 

[mheslep]

But we had to airlift all of Berlin's food to them. It's been discussed earlier in this thread about how Gaza has an abundance of food already

I been following the thread and just researched for food. I can find nothing definative saying Gaza has an 'abundance of food'. The closest to thing to that claim I can find is second hand, here (food is 'on the shelves', but no affordable).
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2745775&postcount=275

 

[mheslep]

I don't know who specifically made the claim, as I posted above I got the claim from BBC:

Yes I recall the BBC bit at the bottom, but I can't find any backup for it.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

The closest to thing to that claim I can find is second hand, here (food is 'on the shelves', but no affordable).
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2745775&postcount=275

Similar to what I've heard, that only the rich have the luxury of available food.

 

[OmCheeto]

Until I see the children of Gaza:

looking like the children of Darfur:

I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with the assumption that they are being fed adequately.

 

[OmCheeto]

But then again, someone did just point out that Hamas is now refusing to let the tons of aid into Gaza.

Perhaps that's the next plan. Skinny down the kids.

Photo martyrdom opportunity #2.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

But then again, someone did just point out that Hamas is now refusing to let the tons of aid into Gaza.

Perhaps that's the next plan. Skinny down the kids.

Photo martyrdom opportunity #2.

Yeah, I don't get what Hamas is doing now. They want to antagonize their own people too?

 

[OmCheeto]

ps. I was going to use an image of holocaust kids above:

But I decided that I might be accused of being biased towards Israel if I did that.

Someone actually had the audacity on Facebook-Al Jazeera of saying the "The Jews went back to Israel because they were made homeless in Europe." I corrected them; "They were not made homeless, they were slaughtered."

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Sorry, but what do those images have to do with anything... ?

 

[OmCheeto]

Ah ha! There it was:

Om, there is enough space in Palesine. none of Palestinians I know want to dislocarse Israeli settlers. they just want to live as humans. they can live together
23 May at 13:35

Zowie, that's not the message we are hearing in the west. We hear that the Arabs want all Israelis gone.

But we are far away and generally do not know any Palestinians. We know lots of Christians, Jews, and Muslims, and we seem to get along quite well here. But we do not know any Palestinians.

I've looked at Israel on Google Earth from outer space. You cannot see it in comparison to the rest of your hemisphere. If you get closer, you see the borders imposed by the west, back in the olden days. You also see wide areas of land outside of Gaza in Egypt that are basically empty.

It might be a good time right now, to redefine the borders. I mean really, when was the last time America had a president of African decent?

Change should not be feared, when good can come of it.
23 May at 14:12

 

[arildno]

Getting back to the topic: a 19 year old American citizen was killed in the debacle. Reportedly, they were shot 4 times in the head, and once in the chest, at close range. This definitely smells like foul play on the part of IDF. Source:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/06/03/2010-06-03_american_citizen_among_dead_in_botched_israeli_raid_of_gazabound_flotilla.html"

Why foul play?

If the 9 persons had had a single bullet wound in the back of their heads, THEN I'd say foul play.

But in a messy scuffle, people fighting everywhere, 4 guys seeing a friend in need from somebody atop of him, and they all fire at him, as well as their friend, then the assailant will end up dead from an over-abundance of bullet, most of them from..VERY SHORT RANGE, indeed.

 

[OmCheeto]

Sorry, but what do those images have to do with anything... ?

Everything young Tub. Everything.

 

[arildno]

Similar to what I've heard, that only the rich have the luxury of available food.

Nonsense.

Starvation symptoms will be apparent after one week, not imperceptibly over 3 years.

This is a biological..fact.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Nonsense.

Starvation symptoms will be apparent after one week, not imperceptibly over 3 years.

This is a biological..fact.

What I mean is ENOUGH food. Certainly, they may survive, but they hardly live a good life. According to the UN, 61% COMPLETELY rely on supplies... which also according to the UN, there's nowhere near enough of.

OmCheeto: Looks like you're trying to pull off the "These people have it worse, so these guys have it just fine!" show. I've never quite liked it.

 

[arildno]

Yeah, I don't get what Hamas is doing now. They want to antagonize their own people too?

Why should Hamas be hated by mistreating their populace??

That is NOT correct psychology..

People hate those they have some hope fighting&winning over, not those they are REALLY scared of...

I have made a thread upon this previously:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=294415&highlight=stabilizing+terror

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Why should Hamas be hated by mistreating their populace??

That is NOT correct psychology..

People hate those they have some hope fighting&winning over, not those they are REALLY scared of...

I have made a thread upon this previously:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=294415&highlight=stabilizing+terror

I REALLY don't think the Palestinians have much hope of winning over Israel. I don't think Hamas does, either. If they do, they are QUITE detached from reality.

 

[Office_Shredder]

What I mean is ENOUGH food. Certainly, they may survive, but they hardly live a good life. According to the UN, 61% COMPLETELY rely on supplies... which also according to the UN, there's nowhere near enough of.

OmCheeto: Looks like you're trying to pull off the "These people have it worse, so these guys have it just fine!" show. I've never quite liked it.

The point is if they completely rely on supplies, and there is only a quarter of the necessary supplies, this means people should be starving to death

 

[TubbaBlubba]

The point is if they completely rely on supplies, and there is only a quarter of the necessary supplies, this means people should be starving to death

That brings us into another question that's bugging me. What is the qualitative properties of these "supplies" and which are in short... supply? (no pun intended). A ton of rice is a hell of a lot more than a ton of concrete.

 

[arildno]

What I mean is ENOUGH food. Certainly, they may survive, but they hardly live a good life. According to the UN, 61% COMPLETELY rely on supplies... which also according to the UN, there's nowhere near enough of.

OmCheeto: Looks like you're trying to pull off the "These people have it worse, so these guys have it just fine!" show. I've never quite liked it.

Did you even BOTHER to read the numerous stats I have provided for, for example, the infant mortality rates (IMR) in Gaza&West Bank compared to other countries??

Evidently not!

Here, I re-publish the one showing how the number of dead infants pr. 1000 live births is compared by OIC countries:

How do West Bank and Gaza compare with OIC members/countries with dominant Muslim population?

Here is the ranking list of 60 countries, IMR's per 1000 live births:

1. UAE: 7
2. Kuwait: 8.97
3. Saudi-Arabia: 11.57
4. Brunei: 12.27
5. Qatar: 12.66
6. Bahrain: 15.09
7. Malaysia: 15.87
8. WEST BANK: 15.96
9. Syria: 16.69
10. Oman: 16.88
11. Jordan: 17.38
12. GAZA: 18.35
13. Suriname: 18.81
14. Libya: 21.7
15. Lebanon: 21.82
16. Tunisia: 22.57
17. Uzbekistan: 23.43
18. Kazakhstan: 25.73
19. Turkey: 25.78
20. Egypt: 27.26
21. Algeria: 27.73
22. Maldives: 29.53
23. Morocco: 29.75
24. Indonesia: 29.97
25. Kyrgyzystan: 31.26
26. Iran: 35.78
27. Guyana: 39.11
28. Tajikistan: 41.03
29. Eritrea: 43.33
30. Iraq: 44.65
31. Turkmenistan: 45.36
32. Gabon: 51.78
33. Azerbaijan: 54.6
34. Mayotte: 56.29
35. Togo: 56.84
36. Djibouti: 58.33
37. Yemen: 58.4
38. Senegal: 58.94
39. Bangladesh: 59.02
40. Cameroon: 63.34
41. Mauretania: 63.42
42. Benin: 64.64
43. Uganda: 64.82
44. Guinea: 65.22
45. Comorros: 66.57
46. Pakistan: 67.36
47. Ivory Coast: 68.06
48. Gambia: 68.84
49. Western Sahara: 69.66
50. Sierra Leone: 81.86
51. Burkina Faso: 84.49
52. Nigeria: 94.35
53. Chad: 98.69
54. Guinea-Bissau: 99.82
55. Mozambique: 105.8
56. Somalia: 109.19
57. Mali: 115.86
58. Niger: 116.66
59. Afghanistan 153. 14

Gaza&West Bank is among the NOBILITY of the Muslim world, right up there with countries like Saudia-Arabia, Kuwait and United Arab Emirates

 

[TubbaBlubba]

From what I have understood, they have a fairly working health care system. IMR:s don't say everything about life quality.