News What would probably be the most impactful steps to stop seal bashing?

[DaveC426913]

While I understand your sentiment, I think your stance is more emotional than rational. The arguments you put forth are weak.

One premise that is essential for we as humans to acknowledge: we can no longer separate ourselves from "nature". We have no choice but to steward our planet and all its natural resources. Any other stance is naive and tantamount to putting ones head in the sand.

Clubbing an animal to death is inhumane and should be stopped. Clubbing a juevenile animal is even worse.

Why is clubbing a juvenile any worse?

Would you take your dog into be 'put to sleep', if you knew that the method used was clubbing?

Faulty analogy. We adopt dogs for their companionship and we don't choose to put them to sleep unelss they are suffering. We hunt seals. The premise of hunting is that the critters are going to die.

They club the animals because the animals aren't able to defend themselves. It is inhumane. Hunting is one thing.

By hunting I assume you mean with rifles? Are animals better able to defend themselves against rifles at a hundred yards than a club at point-blank?

'Raising awareness' does nothing. Money does.

Have you not thought this through? You do not see a correlation between raising awareness and raising money?

I guess about a hundred thousand special interest initiatives and charities have it totally wrong...

 

[mgb_phys]

Go up to Nunavut and tell me how their living conditions are, go up there after the ban and tell me if their the same because now you're still 'paying them to hunt'.

Most of the hunting isn't by inuit it's by newfies.
I couldn't care less about the seals, I do care about paying people to hunt seals and then destroying the crop to keep prices up or because there isn't a market - just so keep a few local MPs on side to prop up the government.
I care even more if the EU uses this as an excuse to block/tariff Canadian software/aerospace.

All countries end up doing this - the Eu subsidizes tobacco with one hand and pays for anti smoking campaigns with the other. But subsidizing something that screws your countries image is just as crazy.

 

[dotman]

We have no choice but to steward our planet and all its natural resources. Any other stance is naive and tantamount to putting ones head in the sand.

I'm sure this is exactly how seal-clubbers see themselves; as stewards of nature. And I'm certain they're doing it to take care of our natural resources. Not for, oh, I don't know... the money.

Why is clubbing a juvenile any worse?

Cut me a break. Go ask any five year old.

Faulty analogy. We adopt dogs for their companionship and we don't choose to put them to sleep unelss they are suffering.

It wasn't an analogy. It was a question. Would you take your dog into be put to sleep, if you knew the method used was clubbing? Go ahead and answer that question, and then feel free to try and argue its validity or not. But answer it first.

By hunting I assume you mean with rifles? Are animals better able to defend themselves against rifles at a hundred yards than a club at point-blank?

Clubbing is brutal.

Have you not thought this through? You do not see a correlation between raising awareness and raising money?

I don't pay my bills with awareness. Do you? Come on, at this point, its almost like you're going out of your way to argue with me here.

Like you said, there are a million causes vying for attention. Awareness is great. Money is better.

 

[drankin]

Clubbing is brutal.

Maybe you believe it would be more humane to gather them up and take them to a gas chamber? Clubbing would be more humane than slitting their throats, I would think. Like I was saying, a pneumatic punch in the forehead would be quick, certain, and painless.

Do you have a better idea on how to efficiently kill them?

 

[DaveC426913]

I'm sure this is exactly how seal-clubbers see themselves; as stewards of nature. And I'm certain they're doing it to take care of our natural resources. Not for, oh, I don't know... the money.

Belittle it at your peril. It has nothing to do with hunters; we as a civilization must realize that Earth's ecosystems will live or die because of our actions or inactions, it is no longer tenable to pretend we can just leave nature alone.

Cut me a break. Go ask any five year old.

So humour me. If we saw things the same way, we wouldn't be having this discussion would we? Pretending it's obvious is a cop-out. Answer the question.

I once again contend that your argument is emotional, which is why you're resorting to the "it's so obvious" defense. If you have a rational response, you are obliged to state it.

It wasn't an analogy. It was a question. Would you take your dog into be put to sleep, if you knew the method used was clubbing? Go ahead and answer that question, and then feel free to try and argue its validity or not. But answer it first.

OK, we'll do it the long way for you.

No I wouldn't. So what? Relevance?

Clubbing is brutal.

You specifically said "They club the animals because the animals aren't able to defend themselves." You then in the same breath claimed that hunting (by which, again, I assume you mean with guns) was a different matter.

So I ask again: How can animals better defend themselves from guns?

I don't pay my bills with awareness. Do you? Come on, at this point, its almost like you're going out of your way to argue with me here.

Are you completely missing it? Money does not come until the public at large is aware of the issue.

I can contribute $100 of my own, and at the end I'll have $100 for my cause. Or I can spend $100 on increasing awareness of the issue, reach 10,000 people, of which 1% might sympathize and contribute their own $100. I now have $10,000 for my cause.

This is as basic as 2+2=4; it astonishes and alarms me that you seem to be missing this.

 

[MotoH]

A man has to make his living somehow, and if that involves hitting a seal over the head with a crowbar, than so be it. People are too sensitive now-a-days.

Seals are pests, cute pests with fluffy fur that just so happens to look awesome on the inside of a female jacket.

Is clubbing seals wrong? No, it is a lot better than shooting them. Cheaper too. If you shoot a seal you will lose money because the fur around the entry and exit wounds will be damaged yielding a lower price in the market.

 

[DaveC426913]

A man has to make his living somehow, and if that involves hitting a seal over the head with a crowbar, than so be it. People are too sensitive now-a-days.

Seals are pests, cute pests with fluffy fur that just so happens to look awesome on the inside of a female jacket.

Is clubbing seals wrong? No, it is a lot better than shooting them. Cheaper too. If you shoot a seal you will lose money because the fur around the entry and exit wounds will be damaged yielding a lower price in the market.

I'm not really sure this is your most convincing argument to win over naysayers...

 

[MotoH]

Simply a hypothetical question, but if you were caught in a baby seal field (lol) in the middle of winter, where it is -40F and you would die if you have no way to keep warm, and all you had was a club. Would you bash some baby seals heads into survive the night? Or would you place yourself at the bottom of the evolutionary ladder because "they are so cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuute!1231(*!(@#!"

 

[DaveC426913]

Simply a hypothetical question, but if you were caught in a baby seal field (lol) in the middle of winter, where it is -40F and you would die if you have no way to keep warm, and all you had was a club. Would you bash some baby seals heads into survive the night? Or would you place yourself at the bottom of the evolutionary ladder because "they are so cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuute!1231(*!(@#!"

MotoH, dotman has preceded you in resorting to emotional appeals and faulty analogies. If you engage him at this level, you will find yourself on a battlefield where these logical fallacies are fair game.

Engage him on a rational level, and he will have no recourse except logic, which will eventually force him to learn something or to walk away.

Note that this discission will outlive both dotman's and our participation. It will live in perpetuity for others to see and learn how issues are handled rationally.

 

[MotoH]

I'm sorry, are you on the Pro-club side? Because I can come in here with some smashing (get it?) points on how seal clubbing is beneficial to humans and animals alike

 

[DaveC426913]

I'm sorry, are you on the Pro-club side? Because I can come in here with some smashing (get it?) points on how seal clubbing is beneficial to humans and animals alike

What side am I on? I am on the rational side. There are reasons both for and against. I just wish to be sure that rationality prevails. No emotional appeals, no 'it's so obvious' cop-outs.

There are compelling reasons for seal hunts. And we here in the south not liking it is simply not a compelling reason to stop it. As to how they are killled, that is a more subtle question. It needs to be addressed in terms of prods and cons. But I do agree that "don't kill them because they're cute" is not a valid argument.

 

[MotoH]

I am glad you are off the fence. It must have been uncomfortable up there

First of all, they are not baby seals. They have to be at least 1 year old, and can not have their white fur. This applies to commercial and personal hunting of seals.

Why use a club? Well I will first explain to the best of my ability the personal side, and the commercial side.

If you are of the Inuit, or other tribes of Alaska and Canada in the coastal areas. You are not going to have a lot of money, especially if you live the traditional way. A device that uses an electrical charge is far to expensive, and ammunition doesn't come cheap. A club can be made out of anything. Also tradition comes into play. They have been doing this for 4,000 years, if they found a quicker and more humane way to kill seals, they would have found it already. Trust me, the native cultures all around the world hold great admiration to the animals they hunt for food and accessories. The Ojibwe people refer to every animal as brother, and they have great respect for the animal they killed because it has given up it's life for them. The Inuit who club seals are not cruel heartless people just there to kill animals, it is part of their culture, and they go about it very carefully as to cause the least amount of pain to the animal.

On the commercial side, they probably have a better way to go about this I just haven't read into it enough. I don't really know the figures on how much seal meat and skin are going for, but if it is a pretty good ammount, then their should be some R&D in some sort of quicker, more efficient and less painful way of killing seals, while being cost effective also.
Who knows, maybe the club is the best way to knock these seals out.

The one thing I know for sure, is the animal rights activists have blown this (as they have with everything else they do. I'm looking at you PETA) way out of proportion.

 

[DaveC426913]

Why use a club?

And somedthing you sort of touched on but didn't explicitly say: clubs actually limit the kill count. One man, one club = one seal at a time.

I would be an interesting publicity stunt to have a race. Send out two men, one with a gun and the other with a club, and see how many the gunman could kill in the time (and effort!) it took the clubber to kill just one.

 

[MotoH]

Very good point!

Playing on the human mind here.

I guarantee you the person with the gun will feel less attached to his prey, and will be willing to kill more than the man with the club because he can fire at a distance.
The man with the club will look for the right seal, and will feel far more connected to his prey than the gunman. When you can see the "whites" of your preys eyes, it brings far more emotion into play. I know when I bow hunt and when I rifle hunt, they are two far different things.

 

[DaveC426913]

Very good point!

Playing on the human mind here.

I guarantee you the person with the gun will feel less attached to his prey...

I was being more pragmatic. You could probably shoot a dozen seals dead from 50 yards in the time it takes someone to run up within arms' reach and club one.

dotman wants to arm them all??

Maybe we should throw our own faulty analogy at him...

You and fifty of your friends are standing around in a schoolyard. A man pulls up at the curb and gets out, obviously aiming to kill as many of you as possible. What would you rather he be carrying? A club or a rifle?

 

[MotoH]

If seals were meant to have guns, they would have opposable thumbs. 'Nuf said.

edit in reply to your edit:

depends, are we all fat and can't run, or are we athletic?

If fat, the gun. Just shoot me and get over with it, I am not running

If skinny, the club. Who can't run from a man with a club? (seals apparently)

 

[dotman]

I'm not going to argue with you about whether clubbing baby seals is wrong or not. I think you might argue with me here about it, because the anonymity of the internet means you don't actually have to look someone in the eye and say, 'Yes, I support clubbing baby seals to death.'

But I doubt you'd say that at your kid's PTA meeting to his friend's mother up the street, if the subject came up. I only have one thing to respond to, because I found it semi-funny:

Are you completely missing it? Money does not come until the public at large is aware of the issue.

I can contribute $100 of my own, and at the end I'll have $100 for my cause. Or I can spend $100 on increasing awareness of the issue, reach 10,000 people, of which 1% might sympathize and contribute their own $100. I now have $10,000 for my cause.

Isn't this how every pyramid scheme you've ever been pitched started? It doesn't work that way, in the real world. Ask Wall Street.

The problem is 'might sympathize and contribute $100'. Your numbers are faulty because a) you're not going to reach 10,000 people with $100, and b) the people you do reach aren't going to contribute $100. It's simply not that easy to raise money for these things.

On a practical level, focusing on raising money, and not 'raising awareness' (whatever that means), is a more effective way to actually get dollars into the hands of folks who could use them.

To the OP, I say, focus on raising money. Awareness will come.

 

[DaveC426913]

the anonymity of the internet means you don't actually have to look someone in the eye and say, 'Yes, I support clubbing baby seals to death.'

Yes, because this issue never existed before the internet...

Look. We get it. You think clubbing seals is wrong.

Do you not get that this is not the only viewpoint it is possible to have? Do you seriously think the rest of us have trouble sleeping?

 

[Proton Soup]

OK No, the thread is NOT to discuss whether or not it is important to stop seal bashing but to discuss impactful ways to stop the seal bashing , it would after all take some really creative and good ideas to accomplish this most likely. Your post is not on the correct thread, Have you tried starting your own thread asking others whether or not it is important because , as said, this thread is not about what you are off in a corner discussing amongst yourself, totally different topic.

create anthropomorphic sculptures that blur the line between human and seal in an attempt to evoke empathy in the viewer.

http://beinart.org/modules/Word-Press/2007/05/06/patricia-piccininis-anthropomorphic-sculpture/

 

[dotman]

Look. We get it. You think clubbing seals is wrong.

Do you not get that this is not the only viewpoint it is possible to have? Do you seriously think the rest of us have trouble sleeping?

You think clubbing seals is right? This is an actual question. Do you think clubbing seals is right? Answer this, yes or no. My answer is no. I state that explicitly.

As far as me not getting possible viewpoints, I get that. But in this conversation, I am the only one who has given actual advice to the OP, twice now in fact. What have you done, except argue with me?

To the OP, I say, focus on raising money. Awareness will come.

 

[Proton Soup]

As for what you can do, raising money for organizations fighting this practice is the most effective use of your time, probably. 'Raising awareness' does nothing. Money does.

money does what exactly?

 

[Evo]

Can someone provide a rational reason that clubbing 12 day old seals to death is necessary?

 

[DaveC426913]

Can someone provide a rational reason that clubbing 12 day old seals to death is necessary?

'Necessary' is not an operative word here. It is not 'necessary' to have an internet or bars, or SUVs. We have them because that is an economy, that is humankind, that is the world.

We hunt seals because it is part of the economy and for many other reasons.

Your question is so incredibly leading that it cannot be answered logically.

 

[MotoH]

Can someone provide a rational reason that clubbing 12 day old seals to death is necessary?

Evo seriously. Did you not read my post or are you just coming in here blind? They have to be at least 1 year old before they can be harvested. It is international law.

I would have no problem telling anyone that I think clubbing seals is fine. Please view my post as to how clubbing seals is humane as physically possible for the people doing it.

It is truly amazing the amount of blind obedience that people have on certain topics.

I will come out and say this right now. Clubbing seals is perfectly fine. I 100% support the seal harvest because it is ethical and there are strict laws in place that keep the seal population in check and keep hunters from harvesting juvenile seals. You know what would happen if we didn't harvest seals? Overpopulation. You know what happens then? They starve to death. Is starving a seal to death far more humane than a swift death?

 

[Evo]

Evo seriously. Did you not read my post or are you just coming in here blind? They have to be at least 1 year old before they can be harvested. It is international law.

According to the CBC article I posted it is legal to club seals over 12 days old in Canada. You posted no link. Please link to the Canadian law that does not allow this.

Again, I ask, can someone provide a rational reason that clubbing 12 day old seals to death is necessary? This has nothing to do with being for or against a hunt, just justify why the killing has to be so uncontrolled and brutal.

 

[DaveC426913]

According to the CBC article I posted it is legal to club seals over 12 days old in Canada.

Would you mind explaining why something must be necessary in order for it to be done in a free market economy on a free planet?

It is not necessary to raise cows for meat, yet we do. It is not necessary to manufacture Lambourgini Countach's but we do. The list is unbounded.

 

[MotoH]

It's 1 year old. They can't have their white fur. I know this for a fact because I have talked with many a fisherman who seal hunts in his off time.

It is extremely hard to get an unbiased article on the internet.
A) if you look at any of the "humane" websites, they say seal hunting is so gosh darn horrible how could anyone do this oh my gosh murderers!
or B) seal hunting is completely ethical the seals don't feel a thing the seals need this to survive.

So you can't really get an accurate look at what seal hunting really is until you either try it yourself (which I would like to partake in. I'll hunt anything) or you talk to the people who do it for part of their living.

Don't bash(get it?) anything until you have tried it for yourself. I don't go around saying "eww i don't want to eat that it will taste gross!" before I have even tried it. So why should you go and say seal hunting is inhumane when you haven't even done it?

 

[Evo]

It's 1 year old. They can't have their white fur. I know this for a fact because I have talked with many a fisherman who seal hunts in his off time.

That's what I thought, you don't know what you are talking about. The baby seals lose their white coat in 12-14 days. After that it is legal to kill them.

Please don't post if you don't know what you are talking about, we have rules against that.

 

[Phrak]

Don't bash(get it?) anything until you have tried it for yourself.

Perfectly understandable. That's why I don't bash serial killers and such.

 

[MotoH]

That's what I thought, you don't know what you are talking about. The baby seals lose their white coat in 12-14 days. After that it is legal to kill them.

Please don't post if you don't know what you are talking about, we have rules against that.

And you do know what you are talking about? All you have posted is some dribble about how killing seals is bad. You don't even want to see the other side of the story. I am willing to listen to your points for the saving of the seals if you don't come off with a huge bias as you have already.

I am not even going to touch on the PM, trying to silence me? Grow up.