When Will Proton and Electron Collide in Vacuum?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the theoretical scenario of a proton and an electron colliding in a vacuum, exploring the dynamics of their interaction, potential energy, and the implications of treating the problem classically versus quantum mechanically.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the time until collision, noting the complexity of interactions beyond just electrical forces and inquires about the potential energy function U(r) in the context of a two-body problem.
  • Another participant suggests using conservation of energy to derive the speed of the particles at any distance, leading to a first-order ordinary differential equation (ODE) for the time of fall.
  • A different viewpoint argues that the problem is not particularly useful as it treats the electron as a classical particle, while in reality, it behaves as a wave, particularly in the context of hydrogen atoms where the electron never truly collides with the proton.
  • One participant acknowledges the fictional nature of the problem and clarifies the intent to treat it as a mathematical exercise involving point charges.
  • Another participant confirms the approach of using conservation of energy and integration to analyze the problem further.
  • A participant provides the formula for potential energy between two charges, detailing the constants involved and their values in different unit systems, while also introducing the fine-structure constant as a dimensionless quantity related to the interaction.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the utility and realism of the problem, with some treating it as a classical mechanics issue and others emphasizing the quantum mechanical nature of electron-proton interactions. No consensus is reached on the best approach to analyze the scenario.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in assumptions regarding the nature of the particles involved and the applicability of classical mechanics to quantum systems. The potential energy function and its dependence on the chosen system of units are also noted as relevant factors.

thin_ice
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At a certain distance in vacuum there are proton and electron (they are at rest with resptect to their's CM). I wonder after what time will they collide?
Of course, we neglect the fact that when the distance between the particles become very small, there is not only an electrical force acting on them.
Is this just a two-body problem? Then, what is U(r) in
[tex]L=\mu \dot{\mathbf{r}}^2/2 - U(r)[/tex]
where [tex]\mu[/tex] is reduced mass?
 
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use the law of conservation of energy to find the speed at any distance between them:

[tex] E = -\frac{k e^{2}}{r_{0}} = \frac{\mu \, v^{2}}{2} - \frac{k e^{2}}{r}[/tex]

where [itex]r_{0}[/itex] is the initial radius of the problem. Solve this equation for v. Then, use the definition of v as the rate of change of the distance. But, since the distance is decreasing, you will have:

[tex] v = -\frac{dr}{dt}[/tex]

Integrate this 1st order ODE with the initial condtion:
[tex] r(t = 0) = r_{0}[/tex]

and the time of fall T is given by the following condition.
[tex] r(t = T) = 0[/tex]
 
This isn't a very useful problem, though. Electron interacts with proton as a wave. Your initial state with electron at rest some distance from proton is technically some crazy excited state of a hydrogen. When will electron in a hydrogen collide with a proton? Never. Though, there could be overlaps of their wave functions.

But if you just want to solve it like a classical problem of two point-charges with mass while disregarding any real-world applications, Dickfore's method will produce a result. Might be easier to have r(0)=0 and r(T)=r0, but it'd be purely a mathematical shortcut.
 
Dickfore,
Thanks, but the question was about U. I didn't ask how to solve this problem. :) Anyway the approach using the law of conservation of energy leads to 1st order ODE instead of 2 order ODE for equation of motion. This is good.
K^2 Of course, it is a fiction problem. I should wrote something like two point charges placed some distance apart from each other.
 
Fair enough. In that case, yes, just use conservation of energy and integrate.
 
The potential energy between two charges is:
[tex] U(r) = k_{0} \frac{Q_{1} \, Q_{2}}{r}[/tex]

where [itex]Q_{1}[/itex] and [itex]Q_{2}[/itex] are the quantities of electric charge of each of the charge, [itex]r[/itex] is their mutual distance and [itex]k_{0}[/itex] is the Coulomb's constant and has different values in different systems of units:

In SI:
[tex] k_{0} = \frac{\mu_{0}}{4 \, \pi} c^{2}[/tex]

In ESCGS:
[tex] k_{0} = 1[/tex]
and in Gaussian system:
[tex] k_{0} = \frac{1}{4 \pi}[/tex]

The charge of the proton is [itex]+e[/itex] and the charge of the electron is [itex]-e[/itex], where [itex]e[/itex] is the elementary electric charge.

A dimensionless number independent of the system of units is:
[tex] \alpha \equiv \frac{k_{0} e^{2}}{\hbar \, c} = \frac{1}{137.0}[/tex]
 

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