Whenever energy is added to a system, the system gains mass

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of mass-energy equivalence, specifically whether adding energy to a system results in an increase in mass. Participants explore examples such as the compression of a spring and the heating of an object, questioning the validity of these claims and their implications in different contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant cites Wikipedia, claiming that adding energy to a system, such as compressing a spring or raising the temperature of an object, results in an increase in mass.
  • Another participant expresses skepticism about the claim regarding the compressed spring, questioning if gravitational potential energy from lifting a box would similarly increase its mass.
  • A third participant references a previous discussion to address the question of whether lifting a box increases mass.
  • One participant asserts that compressing a spring or heating an object does indeed increase their mass, suggesting that energy can be considered as mass in certain contexts.
  • It is noted that while lifting a box may increase the mass of a system that includes both the box and the Earth, it does not increase the mass of the box alone.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the mass increase claims. Some support the idea that energy addition leads to mass gain, while others challenge this notion, particularly regarding specific examples like the compressed spring and lifted box.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for careful consideration of definitions and contexts when discussing mass-energy equivalence, particularly in relation to potential energy and system boundaries.

dav2008
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"Whenever energy is added to a system, the system gains mass"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass-energy_equivalence#Practical_examples
From wikipedia:
Whenever energy is added to a system, the system gains mass. A spring's mass increases whenever it is put into compression or tension. Its added mass arises from the added potential energy stored within it, which is bound in the stretched chemical (electron) bonds linking the atoms within the spring. Raising the temperature of an object (increasing its heat energy) increases its mass. If the temperature of the platinum/iridium "international prototype" of the kilogram — the world’s primary mass standard — is allowed to change by 1°C, its mass will change by 1.5 picograms (1 pg = 1 × 10–12 g).[8]

Is this actually true? If someone said this to me in a conversation I would tell them compressing the spring does absolutely nothing to its mass and increasing the temperature of an object does nothing to its mass.

Now it's on Wikipedia so I'm wondering if I'm missing some concept here...

I was going to remove it but I wanted confirmation first.
 
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The temperature example sounds plausible, but I don't know about the compressed spring. By that same token of logic, if PE increases mass, lifting a box will increase the mass?

Temperature I can get because of the motion of the particles etc. but nothing fundamental changes about a box when I lift it 1m, giving it gravitational potential energy.
 


dav, did you bother to read the reference ("[8]") for the paragraph you wish to delete (from the wikipedia page on a topic that you don't understand)?

Yes, compressing a spring or heating a potato increase their mass. (Hint: in one sense we can say that energy is mass, and nobody disagrees with this when we are referring to a system that is at rest.)

Lifting a box higher above the Earth can increase the mass of a system encompassing both the Earth and the box, but not of the box itself (as Nabeshin and jtbell noted).
 

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